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Double threshold training

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Oct 2024
12:45pm, 12 Oct 2024
420 posts
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Charlesvdw
Summary of training principles:

Build towards 2-3 sub-threshold sessions per week + 1 long run, and the rest easy. Typical weeks look like E, Q, E, Q, E, Q, LR or Rest, Q, E, Q, E, Q, LR. (Q = quality, i.e., sub-threshold).
Sub-threshold work should comprise 20-25% (MAYBE 30%) of total time spent running during the week. So if you run 50mpw in 7 hours, you should run a total of 84-105 mins of sub-threshold per week, or or 28-35 minutes per session.
Sub-threshold is a STATE not a pace. For trained runners, if LT2 threshold is 4.0-4.5mmol, a sub-threshold session should aim to reach ~2.5-3.5mmol measured at the end of the last rep.
You don't necessarily need a lactate test / lactate meter if you generally follow the paces below. But in my personal experience, I would say when first starting out, to run a bit slower than the below, as it seems that when you are adjusting to the volume, lactate can run a little higher.
Reaching sub-threshold can be done with a virtually unlimited combination of interval distances, paces, and rest periods. The most common are:
1K reps (usually 8-12 x 1K) with 60" rest at 10mi to 15K pace
2K reps (usually 4-6 x 2K) with 60" rest at HM pace
3L reps (usually 3 x 3K) with 60" rest at 30K pace
Or in terms of time-based intervals, the most common are:
3-4 minute reps with 60" rest at 10mi to 15K pace
6-8 minute reps with 60" rest at HM pace
10-12 minute reps with 60" rest at 30K pace
Looks like some people do 400m / 1 minute reps with 30" rest at 10K pace occasionally as well. Rest can be standing, walking, or jogging - goal is to just keep the rest short to maintain lactate state.
On easy runs, keep them extremely EASY. Absolutely no higher than 65% of MAS (your max pace you can hold for 6 minutes) or 70% of max heart rate.
No need to do VO2max or harder "x-factor" workouts (e.g., hills) until you stop progressing on this method. Would note, sirpoc does a 5K parkrun race every 4-5 weeks, so he might be getting some stimulus from that. But he noted he has gone 10 weeks without racing and still had big PBs after.
The main hypothesis behind this method is that you can accumulate significantly more training stress (measured by pace-based TSS) over a given period of time vs. a traditional Daniels approach (track workout, tempo, long run), with the same or less fatigue / injury risk. The key is to always err on the slower side and not go over your LT threshold (even when feeling good) as that leads to disproportionate fatigue for the training stress, and can very quickly build up and leave you trashed.
Oct 2024
12:54pm, 12 Oct 2024
421 posts
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Charlesvdw
Interestingly the main poster is spoc/sirpoc, a former sub-elite British cyclist who got stuck at 18:30 5k's using traditional Daniels training, and got progressively better using this approach, to the point where he's becoming one of the top masters athletes (v40) in the UK.
IIRC he is around 15:30 for 5k at the moment.
Oct 2024
2:08pm, 12 Oct 2024
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hellen
Thanks @Charlesvdw

I d been watching a few videos since a posted this morning.

One guy said that he found he lost his top end speed so I think that’s where the odd park run comes in!

I think I may give this a go but it looks quite hard. I’m used to double days. I used to double every week day, now only once or twice a week as I have more time in the day so can get my run done in one go.

It scares me a bit though! I’ve not been tranining very well in that I’ve not done traditional training but I have just done a 3.17 marathon (F50). I’ve done a lot of runs at approx MP (turns out I was doing them 10s.slower). I often go out for 8-10 miles at this approx MP, do the odd park run and the rest easy.

This approach would see me replace the 10 mile almost MP run for two runs but a bit faster. I think with WU and CD it would be more total miles but still similar miles of effort (but the effort would be a bit harder)
jda
Oct 2024
2:13pm, 12 Oct 2024
17,918 posts
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jda
What is “double” in @Charlesvdw post?
Oct 2024
2:26pm, 12 Oct 2024
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Sombrero
Phily Bowden took her marathon PB down from 2:29 to 2:25 and she had some double threshold sessions in her plan. It's certainly not something that someone of my standard and mileage is considering but it was amazing to see how she progressed.

https://www.youtube.com/c/PhilyBowden
Oct 2024
2:27pm, 12 Oct 2024
14,410 posts
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Sombrero
https://www.youtube.com/c/PhilyBowden


Will try again!
Oct 2024
2:27pm, 12 Oct 2024
14,411 posts
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Sombrero
Search for Phily Bowden on Youtube.... moon
Oct 2024
3:11pm, 12 Oct 2024
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hellen
Sombrero wrote:Search for Phily Bowden on Youtube....

Thank you, watching now
Oct 2024
5:04pm, 12 Oct 2024
422 posts
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Charlesvdw
The double comes from twice a day.

Threshold training in the morning and threshold training in the evening. And this is typically done on Tuesday and on Thursday.
An important feature of this threshold training is that they are very meticulous about always staying UNDER the threshold. Once you're training on or above threshold the strain on the body becomes too much. The idea is to accumulate a lot of volume under the threshold. For the pro's this means they do a lot of lactate testing to make sure the threshold sessions are not too hard.

I've been following the Letsrun thread "the Norwegian method for lower mileage runners" from day one and the progress sirpoc has been making is impressive; some other posters have had good results using this method.

@hellen the threshold running is faster than marathon pace but it is broken into intervals never longer than one or wo miles, often shorter. Typically 60sec rest. It's not bad to run the intervals a little slower than prescribed (so in your case that could mean at your true MP), but it is detrimental to run them too hard because then the volume of work will be too much to handle.
Sirpoc does a parkrun or a 10k every month, he never runs faster than threshold in training, never, no strides, nothing. I've been following him on strava he runs every day and his weeks are monotonous 3 days threshold, 3 days easy and Sunday easy long run.
Oct 2024
8:53pm, 12 Oct 2024
6,692 posts
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paulcook
Some very interesting and informative responses from everyone. Thank you all.

About This Thread

Maintained by hellen
At the Chester marathon I was chatting to a couple before the start. In conversation they said they had a Utube channel. I don’t really do all that utube following stuff but yesterday looked it up as I wanted to know how the lady got on. Anyway, I had a little look at the other videos and there was one on double threshold training. I hadn’t heard of it before, I think I’m a bit late to the party like I was with super shoes.

Interested if anyone else has tried it for marathon / ultra ...
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