Power and exploitation - please check my sanity

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HappyG(rrr) Sep 2018 5:05pm, 27 Sep 2018 29,252 posts	0 HappyG(rrr) Before we get into that, can I just get on to prohibition, esp as Raemond is academically qualified here, so want to pick her brains. Prohibition alone, no. But prohibition together with cultural change does, surely. And prohibition leading to practical difficulties and to cultural pressure surely would help accelerate? e.g. If we still had laws saying that homosexual relationships were illegal, despite every (sane) citizen thinking it should be seen as perfectly normal, the law would still support those who chose to discriminate. But with legal support (and positive support in this case of Anti Discrimination legislation) and suddenly the things my granny might have thought and said are anathema to my son's generation (and fortunately to most of my generation too). So to me lobbying for law change and advocating cultural change (role models, speaking out, healthy discussion, discrediting inappropriate materials and behaviours etc.) go hand in hand. I think this stuff is really relevant #metoo etc. It's all part of the same continuum. Not to say it's easy - I've heard debates saying that some women object to being told that they can't be objectified because they like it. I'm not being facetious. I've read various things to that effect. Tricky stuff. G
halfpint Sep 2018 5:17pm, 27 Sep 2018 26,473 posts	0 halfpint This has been a fascinating distraction from my exploitative job that I spent many years qualifying for I think on the whole I agree with :)G. I'm not as eloquent as others but I think for me it's about what it represents - a patriarchal society?? I recently found myself in a titty bar in Budapest with 3 friends and a stag party of 40. We didn't know it was a titty bar until later in the night (when the inadequately clad dancers appeared) but I immediately felt uncomfortable with the vibe of the place when we walked in. It may just have been the sheer number of drunk men but there was an atmosphere which made me feel threatened as a woman. I'm not saying that any of those men went on to sexually assault anyone after watching half naked women writhe on a bar but there was almost a sense of entitlement from some of them. It's a complex business.
lammo Sep 2018 8:32pm, 27 Sep 2018 9,321 posts	0 lammo Happy I had a chance to reflect on this whilst on the rower at the gym, anything to distract me from the slow crawl of time As you have said you are coming at this from a position of limited experience, so I think you should fix that and get out there, or in there, talk to some of the girls and or boys, bar people, customers and get a feel for what's really going on. It's the only way, and it's in the name of research. Let us know how you get on.
Raemond Sep 2018 8:46pm, 27 Sep 2018 941 posts	0 Raemond No-one has really tried to enforce serious cultural change, either with or without prohibition, so I'm afraid it's all theoretical from there on out. What we can say is that once brothel keeping was regularised in Amsterdam in 2000 (people talk about 'prostitution being legalised' but that's not accurate or helpful - some forms were already legal, some were technically criminal but rarely prosecuted, others weren't really legislated on at all. Post 2000 the situation was made more clear, licences were introduced, brothels had to adhere to things like fire safety regulations, pay employer national insurance type contributions, etc) and a serious focus of resources was put into uncovering trafficking and helping victims there was a big spike in reporting - including from landlords who rented windows to 'self employed' women. There was even serious discussion of introducing a grading system in the style of food hygiene so different establishments could advertise their ethicalness (free range happy hookers! Orgsnically grain fed!), though in the end nothing came from it.
Helegant Sep 2018 9:14pm, 27 Sep 2018 5,806 posts	0 Helegant I'm following without contributing much because I was caught in the crossfire of a feminist civil war in 1986 between differently focused groups. One side was saying that women in the sex industry, which encompassed everything from prostitution back to topless waitresses and dancers, don't know they are oppressed and exploited so need to be educated and rescued. The other side said "Don't be so patronising. The hours suit childcare needs, the money is good and it's our free choice." The only thing both sides had in common was a general lack of respect for the men involved. To my mind now there is something wrong with transactions that diminish self-respect or respect for others, and that's where it is unhealthy.
HappyG(rrr) Sep 2018 8:07am, 28 Sep 2018 29,253 posts	0 HappyG(rrr) +1 for Helegant's last sentence. And lammo, err, just no. No. Thanks! I suppose I started this from a general sense of distaste and unease and was looking to see if others felt similarly. I'm glad to hear that most do. But I probably also started by thinking naively that generally "wrong things should be banned". But through your good auspices I suppose I have come to understand and agree to a certain extent that it's not that simple. Would that it were. But many thanks for your input. MrsS(rrr) and I had further discussion last night. With apologies for my petulant reaction the previous night. But some interesting sharing of info - turns out her friend who "liked her job" had gone from IT in an office into a reception in a sauna and thereafter to being a paid sex worker. MrsS(rrr) conceded that she and the girl drifted apart after that and that the girl may have had other issues. Then there were scantily clad dancing friends who liked exposing themselves (MrsS(rrr) was a latin dance teacher and professional back in the day) were probably the less good dancers but who liked the attention despite their lack of ability. So I didn't hear many (any) examples of "could have been doing something else with as much recognition and pay, but chose instead to be nude for money". It was (almost) always because there was something else they either couldn't achieve or were trying to get away from. Not definitive research, but even small amount of anecdotal evidence appears to point in the direction of what I originally thought. So, what to do about it? If I believe in something, should I campaign for it, donate money to others campaigning about it, or take other direct or indirect action? Or should I just sit on my bahookie and do the usual, I'm alright Jack thing that I always do, and just do an occasional £10 donation to a charity trying to help pick up the pieces or just like the odd anti-discrimination meme on Facebook. Yes, that probably. Hmmm. Thanks Fetchies. And keep on discussing in here if you want. I continue to be inspired and informed by your views. G
Wriggling Snake Sep 2018 8:44am, 28 Sep 2018 19,542 posts	0 Wriggling Snake I probably didn't explain myself very well back there. I think it is not straight forward, as has been said, that any one person is exploited in this line of work. I was trying to say that some will be making a legitimate choice, but others will not. I will also say that the idea of being exploited or not in the wider world of work could also apply. I currently work on a couple of 0 hours contracts, suits me fine, yet it will be considered, and is considered as exploitative by other people and there are ideas about controlling 0 hours contracts. So the idea of exploitation depends on the person involved, the line of work and their relative position in terms of finance, mental health and any number of other factors, rather than a straight yes or no. As for banning/prohibition, never works, slow cultural change I would have thought.
HappyG(rrr) Sep 2018 9:16am, 28 Sep 2018 29,258 posts	0 HappyG(rrr) Banning and prohibition do work WS, surely? I agree, more effective in conjunction with cultural change. But sometimes the stigma of illegality (or removal, if it's discrimination the other way) can help to drive cultural change too. Some things, if wrong, have to be made illegal. Whether paying for sex or paying to view sex or paying to be sexually titillated is worthy of legislation is the big question. It's a yes from me, together with lots of more great campaigning from strong role models like we have in #metoo campaigns that clearly say that any form of sexual objectification of women is a problem and needs to stop. I agree about working too - zero hour contracts can be seen as flexible for employer and in some situations are fine for the employee too. But it can be incredibly detrimental for the employee and at least guidance and probably some legislation is required. G
HappyG(rrr) Sep 2018 9:44am, 28 Sep 2018 29,259 posts	0 HappyG(rrr) On one, very specific part of this, could I ask if anyone has been to Moulin Rouge, Folies Bergère or any other "classy" topless or nude show? Did you think it was wonderful, artistic, beautiful and moving entertaining, amusing, fun and enjoyable meh, could take it or leave it rubbish, waste of money, just not very good entertainment uncomfortable, demeaning and wrong Obviously I'm the last of those. And the food was average. And it was ridiculously expensive. And there was animal exploitation. But that's for another rant! G
larkim Sep 2018 11:09am, 28 Sep 2018 5,660 posts	0 larkim Interesting you should mention Folies there. My mother used to work with dance teachers, and they were incredibly proud when one of their protogees secured a season with the Folies Bergeres - it was seen as a real accomplishment. I remember noting at the time that I was surprised that it appeared to be an aspirational role to be a burlesque dancer given the general attire of those dancers - I think I was even shown some photos of her performing (pre-internet days) and in the sheltered life I'd led to that point I didn't even know that "classy" topless dancing was a "thing"!