Power and exploitation - please check my sanity

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HappyG(rrr) Sep 2018 9:14am, 27 Sep 2018 29,235 posts	0 HappyG(rrr) Right, I had a disagreement with my wife last night which got quite heated. I didn't actually hear her whole argument because I stormed out all aggrieved, like the child I am. Topless dancing is exploitation. 99.9% of the girls or women are doing it because it is the best or only way for them to obtain a decent amount of money. The people paying them - the whole chain of the business owners, the customers in the bar, and even the council taking rent or other income from the establishment are exploiting them. They have power and money. The women don't. They do something they would rather not do, just because they need the money. How is that not exploitation? Her argument was that she knows women or girls who liked doing it. (She used to work in a nightclub when she was younger.) I accept that a tiny minority might have a stack of money, a PhD and would be able to get a rewarding, enjoyable, fulfilling professional job, and are dancing topless because it's the most enjoyable thing ever. But that's got to be an exception, surely? I completely accept that it is every individual's choice and that neither I, nor society, should stop people doing whatever they want as long as it doesn't harm others etc. But that's leisure, not employment. We regulate business and employers. Paying people to expose themselves is not a business and it's not a job. It's abuse. What possible need or value in society is it serving? Not a need or value in any society that I want to be a part of. Entertainment? Rubbish, singing, dancing, acting are entertainment. Flashing isn't. Employment? I think I've dealt with that one. Let's create education and employment opportunities of some value for our young people. Fulfils a need - no, this is the main problem. Men do not have a "need" to be sexually titillated. They don't have a right to be able to exercise their urges by paying. Get a real relationship, talk to women as human beings and equals. If you can't, get therapy, by all means, because you are unwell. Never mind what environment it puts people into, what even worse situations it could lead to. I am also completely against prostitution. It should be illegal and any man (and guess what, it's almost always men) paying for it should be prosecuted until the message gets out that it is completely unacceptable. By the way, I'm not a prude. I would walk down the high street naked quite happily, if everyone else does it. In fact, I'd say, if naked dancing is genuinely just normal and natural, then the audience should be naked. I'd like to see how many fat, sweaty businessmen would turn up then. Anyway, I know this is clearly a very one-sided rant. But I just thought I'd solicit the views of Fetchies. I will be going in to discussion with MrsS(rrr) this evening or another day and I'd like to check that if it's actually OK and I'm just mad, then I won't bother with the discussion. I will def have to take a chill pill in my chat with her though, because I'm liable to get quite irate about the subject. And I need to listen to her, as with any respectful discussion and not just criticise or fly off the handle, I know. (Chants - must be better listener.) And then there's animal blood sports. That's a different rant though. Let the reasoned Fetchie input commence... G
jennywren Sep 2018 9:25am, 27 Sep 2018 15,079 posts	0 jennywren I don’t think you’re mad at all. Topless dancing/stripping/lap dancing all that stuff is exploitation in my view. I’d be very surprised indeed if any of the women claiming they enjoyed it really did. It’s easier to justify it that way perhaps by pretending it gives them power or some such but in reality it’s just seedy isn’t it?
Mandymoo Sep 2018 9:39am, 27 Sep 2018 7,225 posts	0 Mandymoo I too agree that it is exploitation, and also that there are probably very very few people who do it because they "enjoy" it.
Dvorak Sep 2018 9:40am, 27 Sep 2018 16,760 posts	0 Dvorak You have just described many (most) jobs, :)G. Exploitation, people doing it because it's the best or only way to make decent money etc. Unequal power relationships. This is just a particular case of it. It may be a special case, in view of the gender relationships, but I don't think it is an exceptional one. Why did you go into such a rant? Because, I think, your views are based on a moralstandpoint, rather than the other arguments you made. One tied up with a bag of prejudices, neither thing being apparently shared by Srrr. It might all not be particularly edifying behaviour, but people are imperfect. Down with that sort of thing, indeed.
HappyG(rrr) Sep 2018 9:41am, 27 Sep 2018 29,236 posts	0 HappyG(rrr) Thanks for the affirmation jenny. Yes, seedy, vulgar. It's a good thing Hendo doesn't post on here any more though - he'd just say, "No, you're being a total c*ck." which would def derail the debate somewhat! Oh, I'll throw in another thing here, just to lend balance. Or not. Moulin Rouge. That's what prompted this rant by the way. In addition to there being strip clubs and lap dancing bars just a few hundred yards from my work in Edinburgh, in the city I love and admire, which is part of what I was referring to, it was the Moulin Rouge that really got to me. You know it's basically just posh, expensive version of topless dancing, right? 3 reasons it's even worse than the dingy little lap dancing bars in Edinburgh. 1. It's expensive. That's more money, driving more exploitation. 2. It's portrayed as a must-do Paris experience. Yeah, like sticking forks in your eyes. 3. It's also got animal exploitation! It's not just women. And it was being naïve enough to buy the tickets for the whole family because my 24 year old niece wanted the full Paris experience without checking what it actually was, that really annoyed me. Not her fault at all. But I was fuming during and after. I nearly walked out. But I can tell you more about that some time if you are interested. Back to the generic question "Is there any justification for topless dancing / strip clubs or is it just exploitation?" G
HellsBells Sep 2018 9:47am, 27 Sep 2018 24,420 posts	0 HellsBells Off on a tangent, I was struck by your casual body shaming. The use of "fat" as a negative descriptor - "fat sweaty businessmen". Are the skinny men in the audience somehow less shameful? Or are the men inherently bad ergo they must also be fat? As a not-size-8 woman myself, I find the use of word fat to imply bad being so casually accepted a little disturbing
HappyG(rrr) Sep 2018 9:49am, 27 Sep 2018 29,237 posts	0 HappyG(rrr) And Mandy, thanks. Dv, right, this is the sort of reasonable Fetchie argument that I also expected to receive and wanted to understand where you are coming from and also why I don't and can't agree with you. Just to practice the argument, as it were! So thanks for your input. By the way, I agree about the general, "all labour is exploitation..." argument too, to a certain extent, but let's avoid outing my Communist sympathies at the same time as my moral prudery, shall we? Yes, it is a moral objection. And it's just an opinion based on my experience and knowledge sure, though I don't think it's quite fair to label that "prejudice". Unless prejudice just means a strong opinion in a certain direction. Semantics. Similarly, if you describe morals as a code for healthy social living. And you could equally use (if not synonymously) etiquette, standards or even... law as alternatives to morals. My objection is that it based on an imbalance in society and that it causes harm to the exploited but actually also demeans the "customer" and by association our wider society. It's the last hangover of the "freak show". Where people with different physiognomies were displayed for entertainment of "normal" people in exchange for money. Often the only way in which they could earn enough to survive. And such shows are both immoral and fortunately now illegal. What's the difference? Genuinely interested in your views, as a Fetchie pal and general smart bloke! G
HappyG(rrr) Sep 2018 9:52am, 27 Sep 2018 29,238 posts	0 HappyG(rrr) HB, you are absolutely right. My apologies. I have been brought up on this before (it was casual sexism that JenL brought me up on before - use of the expression "chicked" to describe being overtaken by one of lead female runners in a race) so I thank you for highlighting this to me and I apologise for inappropriate and unnecessary reference to the weight of the businessmen customers. Better and relevant adjectives would be: weak, ignorant, thoughtless, sexually inadequate, pathetic etc. of said businessmen customers. Their weight is neither here nor there. Agreed. And thank you.
Wriggling Snake Sep 2018 9:56am, 27 Sep 2018 19,528 posts	0 Wriggling Snake How do you explain male strippers?
Jambomo Sep 2018 9:56am, 27 Sep 2018 6,696 posts	0 Jambomo I think it can be both and i don't see exploitation and choice here as mutually exclusive. That it is an exploitative industry can't be denied of course it is, many people are forced into it or tricked into it and struggle to get out. I don't like the thoughts behind some of the arguments though. If someone says they enjoy doing it, why do we say that we know better than them? Why can't they enjoy it if that's what they like to do? Also dancing and prostitution are very different things and I don't agree that one ends up leading to the other or that they are equal to the same thing. These girls do still have their own minds and many of them do one or the other, some do both, but we can't conflate the whole industry into one. Some of the arguments almost infantilizes those involved as not knowing whats best for them and needing the grown-ups to lead them better. There may certainly be many people in that group but I don't think its true for all involved and that there are many workers who actively choose to do this, choose it over the other jobs they could be doing, whether we like it or think its right.