Proper Marathon Training
11 watchers
Nov 2013
6:45pm, 20 Nov 2013
3,505 posts
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daviec
I think it's a bit of a cop out when people say one rule for beginners/slower and another for experienced/faster runners. Is there not a case for thinking that faster runners are maybe faster because of their training rather than the other way round? Personally I have no problem running 20 milers year round. I haven't run a marathon since May 2012 but have lots of 20s in my log. I enjoy doing them. I also think it's entirely reasonable to expect to run faster on race day IF you've been running your long runs at the correct pace. The actual pace that your LSR should be is easily resolvable by using an HRM to measure effort, rather than saying you want to target a sub X-hour marathon then basing all your training paces on that. It's often not a wonder (to me) that people on lower mileage cannot fathom how anyone can sustain a higher mileage when you see how close to race pace they run in training. I see training logs with people hoping to break x-mins for a 10k, and they're running 3 or 4 milers at that (or a faster!) pace a few times a week, and then doing a long run that doubles their weekly mileage at that point. To reverse the situation I can't imagine how tiring it would be for me to schedule 2 x 4 mile sessions at faster than 10k pace, and a 40 mile LSR in a week. That's the equivalent of what some 'beginners' are doing. That's a tough weekly workload!! It's no wonder it can be daunting to add in more runs, especially if it's going to be another 10k paced session. The way to higher mileage is to make sure you do your training runs at an easy pace. The number one rule for getting round a marathon is to be able to run the distance. So forget 'speedwork', 'intervals', 'fartleks', etc. Just run easy, run lots, and do a weekly long run. You'll be surprised how easy marathon training can be, and you'll probably find you get loads faster than you would trying to do speed work. Proper marathon training will see your shorter race paces tumble as well. |
Nov 2013
8:03pm, 20 Nov 2013
2,188 posts
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Curly45
I think what I was trying to say (badly) was that it takes time to develop "race pace" as a separate thing from training pace. I remember running 20 milers at 8:45 mins/mile in training for a second marathon in my second year of running. I'm happy these days to generally plod along at 9 if I need too. I'm fitter now (current illness aside), but I do more so my paces are more relative to one another. Sorry it wasn't meant to be critical of anyone at all, just I think running at an artificially slow pace can be boring and damaging for people. I don't see any problem with being out for longer than 3:30 though if you are going to run a six hour Mara then you need to practice being on feet for six hours or it will be even more difficult cone race day! |
Nov 2013
8:40pm, 20 Nov 2013
1,154 posts
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Tarahumara
I am a big fan of hill walking as a supplement to my running, ok yes I do events in the hills too but I know for me the "time on feet" in terrain has helped me without wiping me out
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Nov 2013
9:06pm, 20 Nov 2013
17,164 posts
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FR
The comments from daviec, seem to echo a good deal of my own thoughts from getting it wrong in the past. When I was aiming for 9 minute/mile marathon pace why the hell was a running my 18-20 miler's at 8:45 pace!! Total madness  Some of us learn the hard way by making bad mistakes.....and paying the penalty.
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Nov 2013
10:13pm, 20 Nov 2013
939 posts
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Revbarbarag
I was using a HRM, but I lost it. I wore it 2 weeks ago yesterday, took it off... and it's vanished! It may emerge from some dark recess behind the sofa... or I could buy another one
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Nov 2013
10:50am, 21 Nov 2013
8 posts
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JonP1
I think I have been one of those culprits in the past where my pace has been too fast for my mid week general runs - 4-5 milers etc. I do use a HR monitor on some of my runs and it is interesting the data I get back from my workouts - for a typical general run at a steady comfortable natural running pace - i am running at 80% - 85% my max HR. Correct if I am wrong but isnt that classed as a faster run / interval bracket! When I am out running at this pace though it doesnt feel really hard or strenous. Granted ive got a bit of sweat on though. However I am not sure how accurate my max HR figure is as ive heard that the general rule of 220 - your age isnt the most accurate. Maybe should I go out and hammer a few sprints / hill runs until the point of collapse to obtain a more accurate figure! lol I am trying to slow down - as im in the pre-conditiong stage of my asics plan for Manchester, so slow and steady building it up (which is good as have just come back after a bout of illness). My first run back after a few weeks I did an easy jog trying to stay around the pace it stated but this felt like a crawl and found it hard to stay at this pace and not creep up. When I checked my HR readings at the end though my average HR was 64% of my max. Based on this, is the pace that I should be running normally or perhaps a little faster 65%-70% etc? |
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Nov 2013
11:32am, 21 Nov 2013
3,507 posts
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daviec
I do 70-75% of max for non-workout runs. 220-age is almost as good as picking a random number for your max. Do a good hard flat out test. The more accurate your measure of your max the better you can train.
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Nov 2013
12:54pm, 21 Nov 2013
942 posts
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Revbarbarag
I've been thinking some more about IM's statement that my legs will go as fast as I tell them to. It's true (up until the point of physical exhaustion), but only partly. I think we each have a natural pace, which we will slot into if we're not thinking about it. That's what seems to happen to me, anyway. I start out slowly - deliberately so - whatever length of run I'm doing. But as soon as I zone out and stop thinking about what I'm doing, I speed up. You can see this in my splits - you'd expect the first mile to be slower, because I walk for the first minute and then jog slowly, but not only is the 2nd mile faster than the 1st, but the 3rd is faster than the second. Terrain is a factor, of course, and I do slow down on hills. In the later stages of a long run, the opposite happens. If I just carry on at the pace that feels comfortable, I gradually slow down. So, yes, my legs will go as fast as I tell them to - but if I don't tell them how fast to go, they have a natural pace (which is around 12 mins/mile on the terrain near home, 11ish on the flat). They will go at that pace until I start tiring, at which point they will slow down. If Inwant to gomfaster, or slower than that, I need to consciously control it. I suspect that my natural pace, while being slow in the overall scheme of things, is too fast to sustain for a marathon. Like Tara, I view hill-walking and long distance walking as valuable training. Unlike Tara, I can't see me fell racing any time soon. |
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Nov 2013
12:58pm, 21 Nov 2013
9 posts
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JonP1
Thanks Davie, thats what I thought wiv regards to the max hr calculation. So maybe I need to slow down a little bit then I am going to start using my heart rate monitor for every run now I think.
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Nov 2013
12:59pm, 21 Nov 2013
29,254 posts
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Hills of Death (HOD)
I know people who run normal training runs at marathon pace or quicker and wonder why they struggle in races
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