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Feb 2012
2:23pm, 23 Feb 2012
9,783 posts
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controversial
i  WAVAS 
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Feb 2012
11:28am, 27 Feb 2012
4,799 posts
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bree
Loca's comment a few pages back got me worried while I was out yesterday. Am I doing my long runs too hard?
PMP is 7:26. Last 3 long runs were around 8:25 average (on the road, when off road I am probably 15-30s slower). The run feels comfortable at this pace. Perhaps I should be going for very easy rather than comfortable?
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Feb 2012
1:22pm, 27 Feb 2012
1,886 posts
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Loca
bree, my easy paced long runs are PMP + 60-90 seconds. But I also do some that are easy paced but progress to PMP for the last few miles. I would say if it is comfortable and you could hold a conversation whilst running along then it should be fine.
I didn't mean to get you worried :-(, I was just wondering if you were running too hard and/or increasing mileage and adding in hard sessions at the same time that could be the cause of your injury problems.
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Feb 2012
2:16pm, 27 Feb 2012
4,800 posts
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bree
Worried is good, Loca, if it stops me getting injured.
Perhaps I AM doing them a little too hard.
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Feb 2012
4:55pm, 27 Feb 2012
31,844 posts
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mxhornet
I agree re LSRs at PMP +60-90 secs per mile as they are about time on your feet as much as anything else. Even if you're tagging some PMP on the end, the aim is to get used to running at PMP on already tired legs.
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Feb 2012
11:30pm, 27 Feb 2012
20,439 posts
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Mrs Jigs (Luverlylegs)
I have just come across this thread, looks interesting had I better pull up a chair and read back?
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Feb 2012
4:47pm, 29 Feb 2012
938 posts
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JEJ
I'd agree with the long run at 60-90s over MP but, depending on where you are in terms of training cycle, variety in the long runs is more important than average pace.
I'm trying to find my motivation post injury to go for what will by my 62nd (according to PoT) 80%+ WAVA race (ranging from 1500m to marathon) next time out so will hang around and click that favourite button.
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Feb 2012
4:54pm, 29 Feb 2012
1,888 posts
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Loca
JEJ, would be great to have your input
Just out of interest, what kind of sessions were you doing for your long marathon training runs? Particulalry interested in say the final 5 weeks before tapering.
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Mar 2012
3:11pm, 1 Mar 2012
939 posts
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JEJ
Strangely there were barely 5 long runs worthy of note in the last 7 weeks. Even 8 weeks out I was still training for 5000m:
M: 7.1 and 5.3
T: 5.2 and track session (7.5 total: 1600 4:51, 800 2:23, 600 1:44, 800 2:25 - windy)
W: 5.3 and 3.5
T: 7.6 inc 5km tempo (17:19)
F: 4.9
S: 4.5 plus 5000m race BMC Cardiff 14:59.84 (71.4, 70.8, 71.0, 70.8, 70.6, 71.7, 73.3, 74.2, 73.6, 71.2, 71.9, 36.5, 72.9)
S: 16.1... and marathon training starts.
M: 10 with 1.5M tempo and 5.4 easy
T: 7 easy and 8.8 track (2km 6:54, 2km 6:12, 1km 3:04, 800 2:24, 3 x 400 70, 68, 71) Felt tired!
W: 5.75 and 7.5
T: 10.1 with some 'easy tempo' offroad 5:53 (153), 5:48 (161), 5:49 (165), 5:45 (167), 5:49 (169), 5:49 (171), 5:45 (173)
F: 9.9 and 4.2
S: 10.25
S: 22.2 slow (big step up in distance, but never felt too tired)
M: 7.4 and 3.8
T: 10.5 with middle 10km in 34:37 (165bpm average)
W: 5.35
T: 4 and 9.6 with middled 5M in 27:24 (progression run)
F: 5.7
S: 4
S: 17.5 including Chippenham HM - disaster - sick at 4M and again at around 9M. Made it home but reduced to easy pace by the end - 76:28.
M: 7.7 recovery
T: 17.2 with track session towards the end (was going well for 400s but 1200s slow and hard)
W: 6.4 / 4.3 General recovery day.
T: 9.4 with 30mins @ 5:56 pace (163bpm) avoiding tourists around Green Park (so all slight inclines, on and off road, nothing flat)
F: 10.1 with 5 @ 5:50 pace (163bpm) offroad, mostly flat around Wimbledon Common
S: 9 with '5M' Club champs XC. Turned out 4.8M. First 4.5 felt like jogging, then increased effort to pull away and win by a good 10s (achieved in last 300m). Steep in parts and pretty overgrown - logs to jump over, brambles, nettles, a water jump etc. Averaged 5:50 pace (169bpm)
S: 22.3 with fartlek - 4 busts between 1 and 1.5M in 5:20 - 6:00 pace range
M: 7.5 and 6.3
T: 10.2 inc 8.2 averaging 5:52 pace offroad (161bpm) and 3.7
W: 7.2 (7:28) and 4.4 (7:22)
T: 4.2 (7:27) and 9.2 including 7M tempo (5:32, 5:33, 5:33, 5:34, 5:33, 5:28, 5:15) 168bpm
F: 6 (7:24) and 4 (7:51)
S: 6 (7:18)
S: Southern 6 stage: 2.4 warm up, 6km leg in 19:25 (5:09) 6 down. A little tired and caught myself napping in 2nd lap - really should have been 30s faster.
M: 7.8 (6:35 - alternating 1M normal and 1M easy tempo) and 4.1 (7:45)
T: 13.04 with 10M easy tempo offroad - 5:49, 5:41, 5:49, 5:47, 5:51, 5:50, 5:57, 5:44, 5:55, 5:57. Grass section was very wet which didn't help - hard towards the end with HR ending up 170+ (though avg more like mid 160s) and 4 (8:05)
W: 6.5 (7:11) - tired
T: 7.1 (6:57) and 9.8 including 30mins tempo (5:36, 5:36, 5:33, 5:34, 5:28 + half at 5:18 pace. Pushing towards the end but HR in the 160s for most.
F: 7.28 (7:18)
S: 7 (7:07)
S: 21 inc 20M 'easy tempo' - 1:58:45 - won 'Spitfire 20' in pretty crap (windy, wet) conditions. Average HR 166, but backed off in last 3 miles as feeling a little tired (only 2 weeks before M-day, so keen not to push on tired legs - a lot of people tend to get this wrong and work far too hard in the 20M build up 'race')
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Mar 2012
3:23pm, 1 Mar 2012
940 posts
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JEJ
So taking the long runs out of context:
Prior to these weeks I would run a 'brisk' 1hr45 to 2hrs in a brisk group (contains 2:14, 2:15, 2:17 men and sometimes a 2:23 lady).
1st big run was getting the distance up into the 20s (I consider 21-22 minimum for an effective marathon specific long run... I note others think of 18-20 as sufficient. Also worth noting that 22 takes me approx 2.5hrs which is goal time)
Next was meant to be warm up, half marathon (hard but without real taper), warm down. Ended up getting there late so no warm up, then race was a disaster. By the end I'd just about written off the day so couldn't be bothered with the long warm down.
Then a 22 with some very hard fartlek. Left some in the above mentioned group scratching heads with a 5:20 mile along a very muddy and rough towpath.
A pretty poor SEAA relay with some miles either side (was too tired after the race to get closer to the intended 20)
Then a 'solid pace' 20, about 10-15s / mile outside marathon effort (not pace)
Funny looking back how it didn't go to plan. Same goes for Marders who after a similarly broken build up ran a big PB of 2:18, finishing 10mins ahead of me that day. In my case it was probably a mixture of the tempo running after the solid 8 weeks (~80mpw) with lots of quality 5km work which formed enough endurance to get me through 35km in reasonable comfort.
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