Aaarrrgghh - get well soon Bradley

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DeeGee Nov 2012 9:56am, 9 Nov 2012 13,081 posts	0 DeeGee Slight change of subject. Still relevant. this is interesting: londoncyclist.co.uk
JohnnyO Nov 2012 10:08am, 9 Nov 2012 14,059 posts	0 JohnnyO I think V'rap has hit the nail on the head. The problem is that the whole debate becomes so polarised. Most cyclists are reasonable, though most have probably done something a bit unpredictable and possibly illegal. Similarly most drivers have been guilty of going too fast or leaping out from a side road into the path of a cyclist they didn't see- but few of them are doing it intentionally. Unfortunately the arguments that follow always consist of a series of incensed anecdotes describing activities that most of us would agree were wrong (on both sides). I have no experience of cycling in one of the european utopias, but I imagine the main reason they work is because people respect each other and make adjustments for the other's faults. The debate on here has been quite moderate this time, but this is niche. The wider UK debate will be on Jeremy Vine and other sensationalist media outlets and will be more aggressive, more black and white and will probably only lead to more anger and no progress. hugs tree and fucks off
Muddie Nov 2012 10:30am, 9 Nov 2012 246 posts	0 Muddie That was Quite Interesting @DeeGee [and posted to FB] Found on a quick Google guideholland.com
Autumnleaves Nov 2012 10:41am, 9 Nov 2012 1,072 posts	0 Autumnleaves Interesting read DG - I don't cycle now - used to cycle to work when we lived in Oxford and felt pretty safe, OH cycles quite a lot and generally says local drivers are quite respectful, apart from (noticeably) 4x4s in Cheshire (his words not mine). As a pedestrian & motorist I do get exasperated by the few cyclists in town (& it is a few) who ignore traffic lights & pedestrian crossings, and those that ride on pavements without lights after dark. As JO points out, the problem is that the debate always does get polarised round examples of poor behaviour on one side as a justification for equally bad behaviour on the other. Wherever fault lies in any collision between a cyclist & a motorist, the cyclist is always likely to come off worst so respect is a key word I think.
WobblingTime Nov 2012 10:53am, 9 Nov 2012 1,103 posts	0 WobblingTime Aye AL - I got told off by MrWT yesterday because while cycling round a aroundabout, I wasn't indicating right. A driver pulled onto the roundabout and I shouted at them :-/ My view was that although I wasn't indicating, the driver should have thought 'cyclist, not wearing a lot of metal, will gets a few bumps and bruises if I let her hit my car. I'll stay here and let her pass' rather than pull out on the off chance I might be going straight. And yes I appreciate I should probably indicate when I'm going round a roundabout, but that usually makes me wobble / fall over. As it was I was in the inside of the roundabout, so likely to be turning right, rather than going straight across.
sprouty76 Nov 2012 10:54am, 9 Nov 2012 4,255 posts	0 sprouty76 Very interesting, although I'd heard about saccades before I hadn't thought of them in this context. I was once getting up to get off a bus just as we were approaching a cyclist to overtake, they had flashing lights around their ankles and the combination of the flashing and the up and down motion made them totally unmissable even though the lights weren't actually that bright. I went and bought some as soon as I could The only thing is that the ankles won't be as visible for a driver pulling out of a junction compared to a driver overtaking. About bike position - I find it useful to be further out not just to make you more visible to drivers pulling out of junctions, but to force drivers behind you to actually overtake you like a vehicle as opposed to merely driving along with a small obstacle on their left. Making them actually take a positive action as opposed to continuing with their default position gives them an opportunity to properly consider the risks to all involved.
The Teaboy Nov 2012 10:55am, 9 Nov 2012 2,748 posts	0 The Teaboy JohnnyO. I've cycled in Europe and you have it right. It is a respect thing. And for the record 4x4s may be bad, but Audi drivers are the worst.
Puddington Nov 2012 11:02am, 9 Nov 2012 47,966 posts	0 Puddington Johnny is well dead smart and that.
MH Nov 2012 11:03am, 9 Nov 2012 129 posts	0 MH I agree with Johnny O and much of the above - In general, the media (Jeremy Vine show et al) have no interest in promoting sensible discussion, and set out deliberately to polarise the debate in hand, regardless of subject. Producers etc are never, ever interested in the actual subject or even the people being interviewed, only whether it makes 'good radio' and has people outraged, in tears etc. In the general debates, there never seems to be an encouragement to see anything from the other persons view in both senses of the word. i.e the cyclist with no lights in dark clothes seeing for themselves how invisible they are in the dark and the car driver seeing for themselves what it's like when a car passes way too close. I have to admit that I have no idea how much direction is given at schools or other outlets these days on safer cycling. I was seriously shocked to see two young kids cycling the wrong way along the Crowthorne bypass - presumably they had been always told to 'face the traffic' when walking and applied the same logic...
The Teaboy Nov 2012 11:03am, 9 Nov 2012 2,750 posts	0 The Teaboy Sprouty - absolutely right on the positioning thing.