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More efficient running style

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FenlandRunner Apr 2013 10:00pm, 13 Apr 2013 15,698 posts	Quote Pin FenlandRunner James, I've nailed my colours to the Hadd/Maffetone mast and strongly believe that when in 'base-building' any anaerobic work can completely negate the gains in endurance.
James1982a Apr 2013 10:40pm, 13 Apr 2013 8,994 posts	Quote Pin James1982a I don't know too much about Hadd and nothing about Maffetone to be honest. I feel I have completely lost my base over the last 6 months or so. I haven't done any speed sessions since November and I'm only going backwards at the moment, both with endurance and speed. Afterthought - my consistency has disappeared, so that could well have a lot to do with things! I know Nokes seems to value that highly and I think he's right I kind of stick to no speed work when under 50 miles per week and when I am there, I follow a Jack Daniels periodization (sic), so I have 6 weeks of only easy pace running, followed by 3 phases of 6 weeks with different emphasis of speed session. As I'm going backwards, I have considered tearing up the rule book and just doing a speed session every other day. I have wondered if that would work better for me as I was a pretty good sprinter when I was a teen. I didn't do any specific training for that. I did weight lifting regularly and played football (badly) every day at school. I applied myself so was walk-sprinting throughout the lunch hour every day. I've often wondered if that's the way for me to go now - I was also competitive at the school cross country. How long are you base building for FR?
FenlandRunner Apr 2013 10:45pm, 13 Apr 2013 15,700 posts	Quote Pin FenlandRunner How long are you base building for FR? Forever We are all different, but I've made more progress in the last 12 months by running slower, than the previous six years. It just works for me. Instead of trying to run faster it just happens. The average heart rate for 4-hr marathon pace is now at recovery run level. It might not work for others, but for me, exactly what has been preached by Hadd/Maffetone and our Fetchies, Boab, PtB, Daviec, GlennR and others has been proven to work for me. BUT you have to enjoy it. It is a double-positive-whammy, I love running and I've now learnt to run slower. I embrace an 11 or 12 minute mile with the same joy as I used to look at 6.xx
James1982a Apr 2013 10:53pm, 13 Apr 2013 8,995 posts	Quote Pin James1982a I did wonder that FR I seem to plateau quickly with just easy paced running (I run to feel nowadays but that usually keeps me inside 70% whr)
Canute Apr 2013 11:12pm, 13 Apr 2013 593 posts	Quote Pin Canute Boab and FR, your comments are interesting and consistent with what many others have reported. One of the reasons I am interested in this question is that when I am recovering from an episode of arthritis, I do most of my training on an elliptical cross-trainer. Although I enjoy the contemplative state induced by low intensity work-outs of duration around 30 minutes on the elliptical, I find it much more interesting to do intense elliptical sessions rather than long, low intensity sessions. So during periods of elliptical training I do two or three fairly intense session per week (eg 10x3 min near anaerobic threshold with 2 min recoveries) together with some low intensity sessions. On several occasions I have done this for many weeks during a base-building phase. On each occasion, my aerobic capacity when running, as indicated by heart beats per Km recorded on the same course under similar circumstances, improved appreciably despite very little running. In early 2007, a period of 12 weeks of elliptical training led to an improvement from 790 b/Km to 720 b/Km when running. Following my recent exacerbation of arthritis, 6 weeks of elliptical training (volume equivalent to about 35 mpw) have produced a somewhat less impressive but appreciable improvement from 720 to 705 b/Km (assessed during 21 Km runs). In contrast, last year when I was able to do some regular base-building unhindered by arthritis, I achieved a reduction for 695 b/Km to 670 b/Km over 18 weeks mainly based on low intensity running (average of 36 miles/week). There figures from different years are not easily comparable because of different starting points, based largely on preceding health, and different durations of training. The only definite conclusion is that worthwhile aerobic improvements can be achieved by either low intensity running or elliptical sessions with a focus on high intensity. In view of the fact that my aging limbs can only cope with about 35 miles per week at present, I think it is probably sensible for me to include high intensity sessions, even during base-building. I suspect that this might also be the case for other individuals, who can only manage around 30-40 mpw, whether due to infirmity or time availability. With regard to the question of whether long runs are essential, it is noteworthy that Jim Peters ran some impressive marathons based mainly on fairly intense 6-7 mile training runs, though I am sure if he were running today he would do longer training runs and would run even faster marathons. I certainly do not advocate omitting long runs; the question is whether high intensity session blunt the effect of these. SPR, Gibala’s evidence indicates that the main advantage of HIIT is time efficiency. With regard to physiological changes, it increases mitochondrial oxidative enzymes that would be expected to enhance the utilization of both glucose and fats. It is very unlikely to do much for the conditioning of connective tissues required for marathon running. James, my current day-job is neuroscience, but over the years I have been fortunate enjoy a varied career that has given me extensive experience of many aspects of human physiology and also of running.
James1982a Apr 2013 2:16pm, 14 Apr 2013 8,999 posts	Quote Pin James1982a The other thing with me is I find my legs go well before my Cardiovascular System. Last year I was running my easy pace runs in the low 8 minute miles with the odd sub 8 creeping in and it felt easy. Now my easy run pace is 9-10 minute miles and my legs feel like concrete. It feels a lot harder running 9-10 then it did low 8's (8:00 to 8:15) and not the same 'hard' as racing a 10k. It's quite hard to describe the different hardness between concrete legs and free flowing legs racing a 10k but feeling it a bit. Concrete legs are not a nice or fun feeling - it's more of a dull constant ache which is horrible whereas racing a 10k it's more of a sharp kind of pain - pain being the wrong word but it doesn't feel horrible. My current situation = less consistent, less cross training & no speed work so there are too many factors in play to be fully conclusive But I maintain that although I have lost a bit of CV fitness, that will come back a lot quicker than my legs will. I'm kind of thinking along the lines of the mitochondria thing on the previous page but am probably just talking out of my backside.
James1982a Apr 2013 2:23pm, 14 Apr 2013 9,000 posts	Quote Pin James1982a actually, I think my point was that even though I'm running 'easy' as per my hr and breathing, it isn't easy on my legs at the moment - and maybe the better way to sort that would be sticking some speed work in, even though I've also pointed out my consistency is shot and I have no idea whatsoever what I'm on about. I should probably stop writing now.
Jhuff Apr 2013 2:50pm, 14 Apr 2013 3,722 posts	Quote Pin Jhuff James, have you ever worked one to one with a pose coach?
James1982a Apr 2013 4:10pm, 14 Apr 2013 9,001 posts	Quote Pin James1982a No. I wouldn't be able to afford it.
Canute Apr 2013 4:20pm, 14 Apr 2013 594 posts	Quote Pin Canute James A quick look at your training log indicates 2 things. First, there s not much difference in either length or pace between your recovery runs and other runs. A major goal in a recovery run is relaxation. Concentrate on relaxed shoulders and short light steps. Do not put yourself under any pressure. Pace is not important, though generally, the slower the better. 11 min miles are fine. The second thing is that stresses from other aspects of your life might be contributing to a vicious circle leading you to feel that everything is going pear-shaped. If this is the case, defer any running targets apart from learning to feel relaxed while running. You trained hard last year and achieved some good PBs. It is quite common after a good season, that the expectation that things will be even better next season is not fulfilled. So step back and recover your enjoyment of running. Then find ways of training even smarter than last year and you will have a good chance of improving those PBs. One thing I find helpful when I get stuck in a rut is a weekly session of drills and stride-outs along the lines described by Peter Magill. runnersworld.com This usually gets my legs moving freely again.