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Apr 2013
6:58pm, 8 Apr 2013
4,476 posts
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jonp
Canute, good to hear we have some close agreements. Also that any disagreements are being discussed in a constructive manner.
Regarding elites, I am neither one or have worked with any so I'm not going to offer too much opinion in the area. I expect most serious athletes will want to put some strength work in their training alongside their technique work (however that maybe as directed by their coach). Many recreational runners neither work on their technique or specific strength work, so (as a coach) we have to work together on both.
Anyway I don't really wish to bring this thread into another Pose Method versus the rest discussion board which is what often happens. So I'll step out and let others hopefully add to the discussion.
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Apr 2013
9:23pm, 8 Apr 2013
21,150 posts
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cabletow
Question
Is the paw back of evolution running push off? Or fall? Or hip extension holding on to the fall a little longer of natural running?
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Apr 2013
10:49pm, 8 Apr 2013
143 posts
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d87heaven
Is strength important as if you cant contract (stiffen) a muscle sufficiently the tendon cannot add in its elasticity. Looking at calf activity at 'push off' it looks like a push off is happening but could it be just the contraction of the muscle to enable the tendon and fascia to provide that elasticity?
The gastroc has a length change of 20mm ish during hopping and most of this seems to come from the tendon complex which itself has an unusual structure. Interesting to note sprinters seem to have a stiffer tendon than distance runners.
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Apr 2013
12:18am, 9 Apr 2013
588 posts
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Canute
D87H, If a muscle is to maintain stiffness in the tendon to needs to be strong. When running, the contraction that tensions the tendons is mainly eccentric (in which the muscle contracts as it is stretched). The type of bounding that Lydiard advocated is excellent for developing eccentric strength, but eccentric contraction has greater potential for damaging the muscle, so it is risky to perform very demanding eccentric exercise before developing good concentric strength. In lifts such as the squat, the downwards phase is eccentric and the upwards phase is concentric. I think squat are very helpful, both in their own right and as a preparation for bounding and other forms of plyometrics.
With regard to the muscles that are used to get airborne. I think that the glutes, hams and quads do most of the work. They initiate the upward acceleration of the COM immediately after mid-stance. I personally think the glutes play a large role. They extend the hip which at this stage is slightly flexed at mid-stance. Usually the gastrocnemus maintains an approximately isometric contraction shortly after mid-stance, thereby maintaining tension in the Achilles, before exhibiting a concentric contraction late in stance. This contraction of gastrocnemius continues after lift-off and helps flex the knee, but I do not think it provides the main push.
CT, I am not sure that the paw-back should be described as push-off. As I understand it, the so-called ‘paw back’ is supposed to occur in late swing, but I do not know what Ken Mierke would say. I know he strongly believes that the push should be a forward push rather than an upward push. I think this is not wholly realistic because unless the push produces substantial elevation, the range of the airborne phase will be short – as was discussed here in connection with bounce a week or two ago, a cannon fired near to horizontal achieves only a short range.
Ken emphasizes the importance of the glutes because he believes that they drive the torso forwards. As mentioned in my comment to D87H, I think that the glute contraction that occurs at mid-stance when the hip is still flexed plays an important role in initiating the upward acceleration immediately after mid-stance. However this interpretation is controversial. Dan Lieberman believes that the function of the sharp contraction of glut max around mid-stance serves mainly to stabilise the trunk while on stance.
The glutes also fire strongly in late swing to arrest the swinging leg. This is sometimes interpreted as paw back though in fact I think it is mainly to tension the posterior chain to ensure maximum capture of elastic energy on foot strike, and thereby assist the upward acceleration after mid-stance.
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Apr 2013
7:14am, 11 Apr 2013
21,151 posts
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cabletow
If the hips are forward ie neutral then lift or extension is surely mainly glut.... If the hip is flexed then quads are needed to initiate extension of the hip. Glut contraction is powerful and thus partial alignment allows more power to be available for lift.
Hip extension is another way of saying getter hips forward, is it not?
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Apr 2013
8:01am, 11 Apr 2013
2,176 posts
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Sapporo HIITman
Spring is here. Glad to see you fellows contemplating running!
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Apr 2013
11:35am, 11 Apr 2013
590 posts
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Canute
Dave, I hope your own running is going well.
CT, we agree that the glutes can make a powerful contribution to lifting. We also agree on keeping the hips forward and I think we are in agreement that glutes play a role in keeping the hips forward by virtue of extending the hip.
I would be grateful for further clarification of your statement that quads are needed to initiate hip extension when the hip is flexed. Quads are predominantly knee flexors though rectus femoris crosses both hip and knee joints and is a strong hip flexor. As I see it, it is combined action of the glutes and hams that initiated hip extension. However, around mid-stance, when both knee and hp are at least slightly flexed, quads, hams and glutes act together with other muscles to straightened knee and extend hip thereby initiating elevation of the COM and keeping the pelvis forward. Because both knee and hip are extending, hams and rectus femoris are maintaining an almost isometric contraction, while the glutes are contracting concentrically.
Thus I think runners need powerful hams, quads and glutes, but I place emphasis on the gluteus maximus because there is a danger that its role in elevation might be underestimated because its insertion into the proximal femur appears to give it only limited leverage on the femur. Perhaps the really important fact is its insertion into the iliotibial band, which allows it to exert strong leverage, provided RF maintains tension in the patella tendon.
Dan Lieberman is a strong advocate of the contribution of G max to running, but to my surprise, he considers that it main role around mid-stance is stabilising the torso. So I think even he underestimates its importance.
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Apr 2013
12:46pm, 11 Apr 2013
18,256 posts
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SPR
I agree regarding glutes and hamstring extending hips. That's the main role of the hamstring in running IMO.
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Apr 2013
11:21pm, 11 Apr 2013
591 posts
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Canute
In my comment above (590), my statement that quads flex the knee was a careless slip. Of course, they extend the knee, and in addition RF flexes the hip.
Dave, are you still doing regular HIIT? If so it would be interesting to know how helpful you have found it. From time to time I include HIIT sessions even during base-building, on the basis of the evidence from Gibala’s studies showing that it is effective in developing aerobic capacity. However, but I have not done it systematically enough to allow me to draw any definite conclusions regarding its effectiveness for me
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Apr 2013
8:24pm, 12 Apr 2013
15,692 posts
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FenlandRunner
Perhaps it's a personal trait but HIIT wouldn't improve my aerobic base. The way for me to improve aerobic base is slow running.
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Interesting study
Jul 2024