Feb 2012
8:13pm, 17 Feb 2012
2,226 posts
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daviec
Not a particularly high wava myself, but the point Lou raises is one I've heard often and not sure I entirely agree with how it's usually put across. The idea that you can't run a fast marathon unless you can run a fast half, which means you need a fast 10k, fast 5k etc. I agree with that bit, but it always seems to be put across as implying that you should therefore train for a fast 5k and build up the way. While that seems sensible when put like that, you could actually argue it the other way round as well. Training to run a fast marathon will bring down your shorter distance times by default, and then if you want you can put some focus on speed work and improve your short stuff even further?
Over the past 6/7 months I've improved my 10k and HM PBs without any speed work at all. I'm going into a 6 week phase of my marathon training doing some intervals once every week or so (guided by P&D), but they are mostly long ones. Sessions of 800s, 1200s, and 1600s with a couple of 600s sessions in on race weeks.
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Feb 2012
8:15pm, 17 Feb 2012
2,227 posts
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daviec
I like Sharkie's definition of high wava as well, coz it would include me
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Feb 2012
8:54pm, 17 Feb 2012
3,911 posts
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Bazoaxe
I am no expert, but my take on this faster at shorter distances thing is more of a longer term thing. Couple of years focussing on shorter stuff and then you can attack a marathon, with marathon specific training may I add, and aim to run better
WIth the elites for example, they get fast on the track and step up to marathon with a speed backround and as they enter their 30s. That thery has been blown up recently with the emergence of pretty speedy early 20s east african marathon rinners who havent had 10 years of track speed behind them.
However, as age isnt on my side, I dont have time to take a few years out for speed/short stuff - and anyway, I enjoy the marathon type training more anyway.
Oh, and I dont really belong here as I am a low 70s WAVA type guy.....
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Feb 2012
9:03pm, 17 Feb 2012
1,597 posts
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Sharkie
Surely for the majority of distance runners on here speedwork should only be on top of a decent mileage base? I'm basically agreeing with daviec. The moving up through the distances for YOUNG track runners is an entirely different and long term thing. They will still have a BIG mileage base by the time they start racing marathons.
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Feb 2012
10:14pm, 17 Feb 2012
6 posts
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nickyq
Hope the drop off in improvement once in your forties isn't to big as I am sure I am still on the uphill road. I certainly feel that I don't have the years to build on the shorter distances so have jumped in and am enjoying the marathon training but always interested in picking up tips and discussing ways to improve my times across the board. Listening to experience is a great way to start
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Feb 2012
10:46pm, 17 Feb 2012
1,843 posts
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Loca
So, you all start a discussion while I'm down at the pub?!
I guess I need to not drink half a bottle of wine on a friday night - that might help for a start!
The WAVA thing is more than open to discussion. When I said 80%, it was more those who have attained it and those close to or aiming for it, in the same way that on the 'time' based threads there are people aiming to do a particular time at a particular distance and there are those that have achieved it.
Am interested in the base then speed versus speed then longer stuff debate. I have always been in the base mileage and then speed camp but when I look back to my first sub 3 marathon, I started training for that after an achilles injury so I started back training doing very short runs, including fartleks and a hill reps, a few shorter races and then my runs got longer and mileage got higher the closer I got to the end of the training. Considering the amount of time I had off with the injury and the fitness I had lost, I made massive improvements with that method of training. Of course I've no way of knowing if the same would have happened had I been able to do base then speed.
I could try it again deliberately but I'm too scared of losing my endurance base!
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Feb 2012
12:21am, 18 Feb 2012
First-time poster!!
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Dave4774
Would of had a WAVA of 83% in 1992, does that count?... Interesting discussion... Started running again 15 months back, and sort of done a bit of base work for 4 to 6 weeks, then got stuck into the faster stuff, which resulted in a lot of niggles and injuries.... 12 weeks back decided to really work on my base fitness, which has resulted in a inccrease of speed and strength... So my understanding would be, with a solid base has got to be the foundation of any speedwork.... But 30 odd years ago, I wouldn't of agreed...
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Feb 2012
7:14am, 18 Feb 2012
1,847 posts
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Loca
Hi Dave, welcome to Fetch
So have you done both methods of training at some point? What do you think are the pros and cons of each?
The problem that I'm finding when I do high base mileage is that I just am unable to hold onto any kind of speed. I don't feel particularly exhausted from the mileage, but if I try to run fartleks or even a do a bit of tempo running during base training, I find it next to impossible, it's like my legs just can't go fast enough and so I can't reach the kind of heart rates that I would perceive as having a 'training effect'. So I end up a bit demoralised and start to feel like I'm unfit. Should that bother me? Does anyone else have the same problem? Or maybe I am really just running too many miles in base training...I don't know!
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Feb 2012
7:27am, 18 Feb 2012
46,473 posts
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Gobi
Loca - having done heavy track speedwork off high mileage I would say it is unlikely to be the actual miles.
I'm a very lazy runner so my easy base miles are slow, it could be simply that you need to slow the base down for a little while add the speedwork and then if you must, increase your base speed again.
Would also suggest doing very short reps of pure sprinting
You need to adopt a good mindset for this as we distance runners are not fast but it will get your legs turning over quicker
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Feb 2012
7:40am, 18 Feb 2012
1,848 posts
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Loca
I tend to run to HR, so I try to keep my HR during base miles to a maximum of around 70% WHR (75% MHR). Some days that might be 7:45 min/mile, others it can be 8:20s. If I do feel tired, I'll do runs that are at a lower HR and even slower 8:30+ min/mile.
Do you think I should forget about the HR, well still make sure it is not going over 70%, but just run slower all the time, like 8:00+ min/mile?
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