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Jan 2023
8:06am, 30 Jan 2023
4,714 posts
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clare1976
I use heart rate / perceived effort these days rather than a set pace. Because I've been at this for so long and had so many peaks and troughs, I don't tend to have time-based goals anymore at the start of a season - those tend to follow as a race gets closer and I can see where I'm at - from the pace which my training to effort has suggested.
Last year for Manchester I had an aim of around 3:20ish based on my training but actually got quicker late on in the race as my heart rate was lower than I thought it would be and i felt great, and ended up with 3.18. I'm using a similar approach this year. In my case, training and racing to a set pace would have potentially been a limiter.
But if you're still on an improvement curve, or need a specific time for qualification purposes, or have a round 'sub-xx' target in mind then of course, training to a specific pace is more appropriate. I've accumulated years of heart rate and perceived effort stats (and experience of what works - and doesn't work!) for me. I'm loosely following P&D and it applied equally for me whether it's pace or effort/ HR based.
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Jan 2023
8:13am, 30 Jan 2023
20,085 posts
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larkim
Definitely agree that P&D's pace bands are too wide. Using their formulas my MP range should be 141 to 157 (or 143 to 157 if using HRR). I knew I'd blown the doors off that yesterday though, or indeed any rational concept of a MP HR zone, but it was a little inevitable for my own psyche based on "where I am" at the moment.
Later in the programme I do watch the HR fall a good chunk anyway as fitness improves.
Last year was a much better example of me putting in the running with a closer eye on the effort levels and see what popped out of the sausage machine at the end (which perhaps should be a lesson to me this time around). Despite my reputation for sandbagging, 12 weeks out last year I really had zero expectation of being able to get into sub 3:10 shape but it did come by plugging away. This time I do need to be careful of putting the time-target cart before the horse.
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Jan 2023
8:18am, 30 Jan 2023
4,349 posts
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Dillthedog
Clare - in a marathon, how long do you track your hr for? You mentioned late in the race your HR being lower expected, but at what stage do you just let it rip? Is that mile 20, 22? I assume that you reach something close to max hr by the end of the race?
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Jan 2023
9:38am, 30 Jan 2023
20,087 posts
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larkim
(oops meant to type heart rate bands above)
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Jan 2023
10:07am, 30 Jan 2023
1,678 posts
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riggys99
I have tweaked the zones slightly based on what I have read and previous marathons
For me HR training makes more sense rather than pace because of working nights and sometimes running on only a little sleep. I have found my training to be more consistent so far.
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Jan 2023
1:14pm, 30 Jan 2023
2,171 posts
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Brunski
I've used a combination of HR and pace in my training, the one year I had a specific HR target 'plan' for the marathon I left my HRM at the apartment (Rome marathon).
Now I know that my Threshold, as determined by both my watch and backed up by races (10m and HM) to be around the 150bpm mark (149-152bpm), and I had a plan to start at a certain pace and then let HR rise naturally between 5k and 20 miles to around 145-147bpm, not going above that level for me.
I know that once it gets to this level I've not got any headroom so the plan was to just stay patient and then let it drift above that in the final stages as long as my legs allowed.
In honesty I've never really implemented that, I often start with good intentions, feel decent at mile 16, start picking up pace too early, and end up with both HR and pace both dropping over the last 3 or 4 miles.
This probably means I'm overestimating my ability to hold this effort, it might be that I burn carbs at a higher rate than I'm taking on, or maybe I'm just lacking that mental fortitude and confidence to really dig in and hurt as you get toward threshold and your legs start to really feel the lactic.
My best run was at the virtual London when my HR was much lower than I thought I could hold, again I pushed a bit early and ended up fading a bit (but not nearly as much).
For reference my max HR is 168-171bpm.
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Jan 2023
5:57pm, 30 Jan 2023
18,113 posts
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KinkyS
HR training makes much more sense for me because of the terrain I often run on. I can easily hit 160 bpm whilst 15mm up a steep hill, and yet only be 140bpm whilst 7mm back down again. Pace only makes sense as an average across a whole run, it's useless at any one point within a run.
My flattest runs are run-commutes - slightly uphill all the way home, with a pack and after a physical shift, so again pace isn't really a good metric as I'm slower than expected for the effort.
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Jan 2023
6:40pm, 30 Jan 2023
2,307 posts
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Bowman 🇸🇪
I use a combination, most easy runs in between a certain HR range, and then I try to run as fast as possible keeping the average HR there.
But for some faster sessions, harder short or long intervals, I look at a goal pace instead, but even then that pace is to a HR that I don’t want to go over or maybe under. If you know what I mean.
I really like to train to HR.
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Jan 2023
7:45pm, 30 Jan 2023
4,715 posts
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clare1976
Clare - in a marathon, how long do you track your hr for? You mentioned late in the race your HR being lower expected, but at what stage do you just let it rip? Is that mile 20, 22? I assume that you reach something close to max hr by the end of the race?
If I am following it properly, I'd usually keep an eye on it to about 20 miles and after that just head down and do whatever I've got left regardless. In Manchester it was more a passing awareness that it was what I'd consider low for the pace and effort at that stage of a marathon, so I was hopeful that I could continue at the pace I was going without blowing up! For marathons I tend to set my watch screen to just show my heart rate and my average lap pace (lap being the current mile).
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Jan 2023
7:51pm, 30 Jan 2023
4,716 posts
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clare1976
Here's the data:
1) 1m - 7:34(7:34/m) 148/166bpm
2) 1m - 7:32(7:32/m) 153/157bpm
3) 1m - 7:34(7:34/m) 153/156bpm
4) 1m - 7:36(7:36/m) 152/156bpm
5) 1m - 7:39(7:39/m) 155/162bpm
6) 1m - 7:22(7:22/m) 157/166bpm
7) 1m - 7:30(7:30/m) 156/160bpm
8) 1m - 7:31(7:31/m) 155/160bpm
9) 1m - 7:27(7:27/m) 154/158bpm
10) 1m - 7:36(7:36/m) 157/190bpm
11) 1m - 7:38(7:38/m) 155/161bpm
12) 1m - 7:38(7:38/m) 155/158bpm
13) 1m - 7:36(7:36/m) 155/158bpm
14) 1m - 7:29(7:29/m) 157/161bpm
15) 1m - 7:28(7:28/m) 159/163bpm
16) 1m - 7:37(7:37/m) 160/163bpm
17) 1m - 7:28(7:28/m) 160/165bpm
18) 1m - 7:25(7:25/m) 160/164bpm
19) 1m - 7:22(7:22/m) 162/164bpm
20) 1m - 7:39(7:39/m) 161/163bpm
21) 0.11m - 53(7:39/m) 161/162bpm (manual lap at 20 mile marker)
22) 1m - 7:29(7:29/m) 162/165bpm
23) 1m - 7:23(7:23/m) 164/166bpm
24) 1m - 7:30(7:30/m) 165/169bpm
25) 1m - 7:23(7:23/m) 166/174bpm
26) 1m - 7:24(7:24/m) 167/168bpm
27) 1m - 7:44(7:44/m) 168/171bpm
28) 0.28m - 1:57(6:57/m) 171/173bpm
I never expected to still be 160-ish at 20 miles.
I was wearing my proper chest hrm which is far more accurate than the wrist thing - yesterday for example my garmin wrist monitor had me between 170-200 for my entire run including the easy miles so I can only assume it was picking up my cadence. Mightily frustrating but I just ignored it and ran to feel.
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RW sub3/3.15
Jul 2025