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Apr 2014
2:52pm, 24 Apr 2014
1,277 posts
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FenlandRunner
Contact Mr Galloway, Baz, but I believe that they are mainly Japanese!!!!
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Apr 2014
11:23pm, 24 Apr 2014
124 posts
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soozie
After reading this thread I decided to rwr my long slow run this evening. I did an 8 mile run last week but it felt very slow and I felt rubbish afterwards. Did just over 8 miles today doing rwr all the way and my average pace was a bit quicker than last week and felt I could have run further. Pace still a bit too slow so not sure if I should go quicker on the running bit or do 4:1 instead of the 3:1 that I did today?
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Apr 2014
12:04am, 25 Apr 2014
2,048 posts
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RevBarbaraG
Going faster and also feeling like you could go further sounds like a result to me!
What was your average pace, Soozie? JG recommends ratios based on pace.... or of course you could try some variations and see what feels best.
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Apr 2014
7:01am, 25 Apr 2014
2,301 posts
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Curly45
I think there are (for this discussion) three types of runners:
1. Those optimally trained and who go out at the correct pace for them at the marathon - they will be quicker continuous running, but these people are a tiny minority of large marathons
2. Those who are optimally trained but tend to go out too fast, these people would possibly benefit from a RWR strategy, but the benefit may not be as large as claimed (see PtBs post), they would likely benefit more from just pacing properly
3. Those people who for whatever reason (early marathon, injury, other focus goals) aren't optimally trained for a marathon. They benefit from RWR (I have been in this group, it is most runners in VMLM for instance)
The closer the correlation between the 5k to half paces versus the marathon pace should demonstrate group 1, and the positive split demonstrate group two.
I walked in my pb marathon, but only because I went out too hard. Marathons are a beast. Whatever way gets you around it in a time you are happy with then I'm all for it, but I do wonder what would happen to group 3 if they became group 1 i.e. were able to train optimally (there's huge variance in what that is for individual, but basically to get their pace variance and/or wava in line for the marathon as well as other distances).
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Apr 2014
8:48am, 25 Apr 2014
6,698 posts
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Bazoaxe
Curly, I think you have summed this up very well.
I fell into your second category at VLM and I know I could have had a faster time with a better paced effort, but given the tight margins I am not convinced that RWR would have made me faster than either my actual, my target or my ultimate target marathon. The margins for me are too tight and the extra effort in the running sections to offset the walking would take me too far into the red.
Just to illustrate the tight margins:
7:15mm = my actual average pace for 3:10
7:00mm = my intended target pace for a 3:03
6:50mm = the pace I actually started out at which would have been 3:00
Undoubtably those 10 seconds a mile for the first 10k cost me a large chunck of the 7 mins I was behind my target. Arguably 7:00mm was actually too fast as well and in hindsight I think that 7:05,, would have been my optimal pace for an even paced marathon in about 3:05/6. If I was to finish with an average pace of 7:05mm though I would have needed to be running at least 6:50mm, probably faster yet I can tell you what impact that had at the end, and the last 2 miles at 8:30mm were not fun !!!
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Apr 2014
10:37am, 25 Apr 2014
2,049 posts
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RevBarbaraG
How much difference would it make to the maths if I tell you the JG suggests holding your planned RW ratio for the first 2/3 of the race, then reducing or eliminating walk breaks thereafter if you feel that you can?
I was about to say something about most of us not being elite runners..... but then I realised it's not about being an elite runner. Elite runners have two things: 1) extraordinarily high inborn potential to run fast; 2) both the time and the dedication to train hard enough to approach their potential.
Very few of us, by definition, have the first. Some have the second, but not the first - they will never win the Olympics, but they will strive to be the best they can be and work hard for their clubs.
And then there's the rest of us.
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Apr 2014
11:43am, 25 Apr 2014
4,500 posts
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paul the builder
Excellent post Curly.
And I was going to follow that with a question - why, instead of spending all this time (discussing here) but especially all the time spent reading / following / practising the Galloway RWR stuff - why doesn't the runner in question aspire to become part of Curly's group #1? Caveat - Curly wrote 'optimally', but think that (i.e. perfectly) is unnecessary; in this case I would instead say 'adequately' trained. I don't think I've ever been 'optimally' trained, for example (you can almost always do more), but I've definitely been 'adequately' trained - enough to be a regular member of group #1.
RevBG - you started to touch on this here too in post 2049. But 'elite' is a straw man here, none of us are elite - as you acknowledge. Now I don't see why the majority can't train 'enough' to reach the 'adequately' trained level. (excuse me for picking you as an exemplar) At a rough guess, you spent 20 hours running in March - that's enough, if sustained(*). And it's not a huge chunk of anyone's life - 3 x 1hr runs, plus 2hrs on a weekend longer run, each week.
Sorry - I didn't mean to make this about you, I just guessed you might be putting yourself in the category of runner who *can't* join group #1, that's all. Applies to anyone who thinks they *can't*. I'd argue you, and almost everybody *can*. And therefore RWR will, in the end, not be the best strategy for almost everybody.
(*) Sustained = measured in years.
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Apr 2014
11:53am, 25 Apr 2014
5,568 posts
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leaguefreak
In one sense PtB, everybody *can*. It's whether or not it's worth it for you in your current circumstances. Realising that has freed me from a lot of guilt. At the moment I *won't* join group 1. Not because I am lazy or anything, but because there are other things I want to prioritise. That's actually OK too. For some people, at some times in our lives.
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Apr 2014
12:02pm, 25 Apr 2014
10,910 posts
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Ultracat
Interesting discussion.
My most successful marathons have been where I have set off at the correct pace and ran the whole way. I have also managed to be uninjured in the weeks leading up to them. I am a slow runner and for my last marathon I was 2.25 at halfway and finished in 4.52.53(I stopped to the toilet twice in the second half). I have never been very good at run walk.
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Apr 2014
12:51pm, 25 Apr 2014
155 posts
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Wirral Dave
I'd say marathons and half marathons are very different beasts.Running an even-paced half marathon is far easier than an even-paced marathon. A 7 minute reduction in halfs and a 13 minute reduction in fulls makes it sound to me like this strategy is more effective for half marathons.
I could be convinced that RWR could be as effective in a half as running all the way. But I don't see how it could possibly give a 7 minute reduction. I do believe I could sustain running miles 30 seconds faster during the running parts, but losing that time whilst walking. It's difficult to see how I would be able to go, for instance, 1 minute per mile fast than then losing just 6 minutes through the walking (or, running nearly 45 seconds faster than half marathon pace and having 3 minutes of walking). The recovery required to make those speed improvements aren't there - the recovery to run faster whilst running and make the same overall time are.
The original post says it's a 30 seconds a mile improvement amongst people who have ran a marathon/half-marathon before. I suspect the sample is actually people who have run the distances before and are now getting a coach to help them. I would suspect that having a coach and an individualised training plan could well provide a 30 seconds a mile improvement.And it's not just that the coach is making the difference; the motivation of the runner to get a coach would show more dedication to their running than their earlier attempts (as well as most people being fitter in their second marathons than their first).
In fact, I think if I had an individual coach, I could do 30 seconds a mile faster in my race. I think others I know could do likewise. If they advised their runners to wear fairy wings on race day, I suspect it would make no real difference and we would all be 30 seconds per mile faster. That wouldn't be about the fairy wings, it would be about the coaching.
I can believe that people who haven't done under 3 hours might for the first time after taking this advice. But, I think they might do so after taking any advice in their training programme.
The way to test the effect is to have three groups. Some people run as usual. Some see a coach who suggests run walk. And some have a coach who doesn't suggest run walk. I suspect the second group would differ to the first, but not the third.
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Run/walk ratio
Jul 2016