Elite Athletics Thread

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runnerbean
runnerbean
May 2017
7:57am, 2 May 2017
43,336 posts
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runnerbean
Be a shame for records to be scrapped. Another kick in the face for those that were actually clean when they broke them. It's not right. Sadly.
paul the builder
paul the builder
May 2017
8:38am, 2 May 2017
6,090 posts
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paul the builder
It's a shame if someone loses a record that was clean, true. But there's no way to know which of them were clean and which were not. And no way to retrospectively prove doping on even the most suspicious old records either. And therefore you either have to accept *all* of them or *none* of them (that the criteria apply to - something like being available for testing in the 6 months prior, and having a sample available for retro-testing, right?).

I don't know if Paula, or Edwards, or anyone else is clean or not. How would you feel about their records if they were both Russian?
runnerbean
runnerbean
May 2017
8:45am, 2 May 2017
43,337 posts
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runnerbean
I understand that but you're clean until proven otherwise.

I think it's interesting and one of those where there is no right answer.
The Teaboy
The Teaboy
May 2017
8:49am, 2 May 2017
15,025 posts
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The Teaboy
Paula's record is statistically a big an outlier as anyone. I can't say I trust it. Edwards set his when he was in a freaky phase of form (he'd got the double arm-shift working). Triple jump has always been a hit/miss event - if you 'nail' one you can just go miles further. There have been other people who have had massive fouls and wind-assisted jumps that are within range of the record.

There's a load of filth on the books in both men's and women's. Too many to go through here, but if anyone wants a chat on the doping thread, I'm game.

PtB's point about national bias is valid. We scream blue murder about the Russians, but bear in mind we finished ahead of them in the London medals table. So if they're doping and doping gives such an edge, how on earth are we beating them?
larkim
larkim
May 2017
8:51am, 2 May 2017
1,898 posts
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larkim
If people had enough patience to understand it, perhaps the ideal would be to have two categories - a "Worlds Best" and a "Certified Record". But the argument would be that that would be confusing to those outside of athletics, and still runs the risk of tarnishing those records which can't be "certified" like Edwards' or Radcliffe's (or indeed Bekele's or Powell's) which, on balance, it seems that the athletics authorities have fewer doubts about.

A strong move by the IAAF might be for their council to specifically vote across all current world records to give them the "certified" WR status, and to downgrade those other performances if, in the view of an authoritative body such as the IAAF Council, they feel there is enough doubt to remove their formal status. But that would be fraught with politics and difficulty.

To me the only straightforward answer is to establish new criteria for WRs (as the report proposes) but to recognise that you can't change the past and let the old WRs and area records stand.
SPR
SPR
May 2017
8:51am, 2 May 2017
23,988 posts
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SPR
I think the right answer is do nothing or investigate record holders and prove they were doping.

TBH I don't think this will have any effect. The general public probably don't pay attention to historical records and any lack of trust is due to things that have happened in the recent past not the old world records.
jdarun
jdarun
May 2017
8:53am, 2 May 2017
1,492 posts
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jdarun
Bike records have been reset a few times in the past, also field events (javelin). Of course that's due to equipment changes. Easier to do when people are up to the old standard anyway. After London it seems that the women's mara record will go soon anyway, assuming someone wants to make a serious effort in a mixed event.
SPR
SPR
May 2017
8:54am, 2 May 2017
23,989 posts
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SPR
The new ratification process makes sense, but you can't move the goal posts after the event as Larkim implies.
larkim
larkim
May 2017
8:59am, 2 May 2017
1,899 posts
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larkim
Define statistical outlier Teaboy. Paula's record is bang on the normal differential between men's and women's performances, and now with HM times being dropped, the conversion of women from half to marathon also brings her marathon time in line.

Yes, she is the only 2:15 and 2:16 runner in history, but women's progress in half marathons recently and VLM this year suggest that her record has every chance of being eclipsed in the near future.

I simply don't think you have as a consistent an approach to anti-doping as Paula had (cf. her "EPO Cheats" banner in Edmonton) to create a cunning "hide in plain sight before I take the world record in a few years time" strategy. Her career and whole reputation are aligned to anti-doping publicly in a way that very few other athletes are. I trust her record, perhaps more than many other high profile ones (which I still mostly trust!)
paul a
paul a
May 2017
9:00am, 2 May 2017
10,943 posts
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paul a
Paula is guilty..........

of hard work, natural talent, immense mental toughness and grit.

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Maintained by SPR
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