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Aug 2017
5:03pm, 15 Aug 2017
10,989 posts
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Autumnleaves
As a coach (with I hope some credibility amongst those I train ;)) I freely admit I have no direct experience of marathon training myself - and if asked for advice about that I qualify the advice I give with that information. One of the hardest things about coaching I find, is striking a balance between encouraging people to take on challenges and push themselves and trying to make clear just how big the challenges might actually be! At the end of the day, the runners I work with are all adults, they don't pay me and are entitled to ignore me if they so choose! I think one problem is that so many people complete marathons these days that they have lost some of their mystique - and there are plenty of people out there who will encourage very new runners to have a go at one when they might be far better advised to wait a while.
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Aug 2017
5:10pm, 15 Aug 2017
27,159 posts
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HappyG(rrr)
Lol at paul a as a "fun runner"! Of course you are, we all run for fun. It's just you're much better at it than most of us. How many marathons...?! How many sub 3:15...?!  
Good shout AL. A marathon isn't easy. We sometimes forget that. G
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Aug 2017
5:19pm, 15 Aug 2017
2,190 posts
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Tim of MK
Age is something that hasn't featured in this debate. If say a 20 year old and a 56 year old (me!) both have the aspiration of finishing a marathon, should they use the self-same training programme? Or is what's realistic for the 20 year old possibly too much for the 56 year old? I've no idea.
All that I know is that I've no intention of lugging my tired old body (knackered from weeks of training over 20 miles at a minute a mile slower than aspirational race-day pace.
If that means that I have a "testing" last 6-8 miles on race-day, then so be it. As long as their is cold beer at the end.....
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Aug 2017
5:29pm, 15 Aug 2017
11,678 posts
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Ultracat
Age is just a number and should be no barrier to doing the best you can and trying to improve.
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Aug 2017
5:58pm, 15 Aug 2017
11,009 posts
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paul a
Same programme but likely different training paces.
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Aug 2017
9:41am, 16 Aug 2017
27,163 posts
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HappyG(rrr)
I already cited the 55+ year old in our club who is still improving at marathon (now down to under 2:55) running big volumes, including over 20 mile long runs (plus other big training - he does big bike rides too - also training for triathlons!) So I'm afraid age really doesn't seem to be the main factor Tim. But enjoy your beer(s) anyway!
The main determinant is experience - which is why I used words like "gradually" etc. You can't go from 10 mpw to 100 mpw or long runs of 5 miles to long runs of 25 miles, overnight. You will break yourself. As a 20 year old, you will break yourself, then you will recover really quickly, and then probably go base jumping next. As a 50 year old, I will break myself and take forever to get better and it's really annoying. Which is why I choose to be careful and do things in a controlled fashion. Doesn't mean I can't go to big (or actually medium to big - 70 is medium. Big is 100mpw plus, in my book!) mileage over time though, if I want. And I do want to do decent mileage because I believe it helps to improve my marathon performance. Each to their own though! G
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Aug 2017
10:01am, 16 Aug 2017
2,528 posts
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larkim
I think as a first time marathoner, the psychological benefit of knowing you can run for a bloody long time before you get to the start line can't be underestimated. If I had expectations of running a 5 hour marathon, if my longest run had only been for 2hrs / 2hrs30 I'd be terrified personally about what it might feel like when I'm 3.5 hours in with an hour and a half of running still to go.
Whether that is an unfounded fear or not, I'm sure I'd not be the only one to have that fear.
I do think though there is a lot to be said for creation of differing training plans for "completers" and "racers". And I don't just mean sub 2:30 racing snakes as "racers", I mean everyone who deep down knows that they are aiming to run at a target pace which will put them on the limit for a significant proportion of the race, and for whom hitting a time target is a high priority.
The P&D plans (well respected, as I understand, and I'm following one at the moment) don't shy away from 20 mile runs. In fact, in their longest plan they go up to 24 miles. I doubt their plans are "wrong" in using those long runs, they just are not "right" for everyone, but perhaps people like me (on first marathon in October, but with one 33 mile ultra under the belt) really shouldn't look to plans like P&D to guide us. But I'm following it, as many many others have, and whilst i've picked the lowest volume / shortest plan (for a variety of sound reasons) that's still got running 20 milers twice in the 12 week build up. (I put myself in a grey area of both "completer" and "racer" - I've run over 26.2 miles before, and I want to achieve 3:15, but I am comfortable with using this next race to be a line in the sand if that's what it turns out to be)
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Aug 2017
10:10am, 16 Aug 2017
10,991 posts
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Autumnleaves
I had an interesting conversation with one of my runners this morning - she is one of 3 who are training for the Metric Marathon in October. I suggested this as they all said they fancied tackling a marathon next year. They are all relatively new to running with only 1-2 half marathons under their belt at best, one doesn't have that. Anyway, I suggested they use the Metric rather like I did a couple of years ago, to test out running further and increasing their training load from what they had done for their half marathons. For me, this proved that I wasn't ready for more - and I learned today that it has done the same for Jo. She said she had realised it was too much running, she was starting to hate it and needed more of a balance. She has decided to leave a marathon for a few more years, until her daughter is a bit older and she has a bit more time, and focus in the meantime on building more of a base mileage. I have real concerns about one of the three as she is pushing herself quite hard and has diabetes. We have had real problems working out her fuelling over long runs, it's been a real challenge (she has an insulin pump). Anyway I am wandering off the point, but this has been an interesting discussion - thanks
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Aug 2017
10:12am, 16 Aug 2017
10,992 posts
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Autumnleaves
I x-posted with larkim - heartily agree about plans - there is a big difference with training to get round surely and training for a time, that's also true of half marathons.
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Aug 2017
10:15am, 16 Aug 2017
11,617 posts
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Chrisull
HappyG - no, twas at Fenners. Agree with your assertions and advice. I believe the coach wasn't voicing his opinion, but alluding to studies on injuries vs time on feet for newish marathon runners. He coaches elites has done for decades, but we seem to know better? He said the thinking was that these runners would be best served by exchanging one long run of 3.30-4 hrs for 20 miles, for 2 successive days of 2 hr runs. I assume this was evidence based but no studies were offered.
The main point is - pace isn't the only problem - distance is a problem too, otherwise we could all walk 30 miles a day and be fine and suffer no ill effects. Of course we can't. What the coach is getting at, is the more ahem "recreational" runner, going too fast is usually not the problem. For you, me and everyone on this thread, yes going too fast will be an issue. Injuries can and do result from too much distance.
I must say one of the most gruelling runs I did was a very strict HR pace 21 miler (ie never breach 80%), that took way over 3 hours 30, and I could barely walk by the end of it, and suffered badly afterwards, and it did not help my fitness or marathon ability. The other thing we forget is form can deteriorate at slow paces (hence the extreme POSE runners view (NOT mine) that anything slower than 8 minute miling can only have big form issues and isn't proper running). My opinion is my own running form is best at 6.10-6.15 pace, but I can't maintain it for more than a couple of miles. Improving your running economy (via strength work and speed work) is a great way to improve.
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