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Hadd's Approach To Distance Running

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Ultracat Oct 2009 8:24am, 10 Oct 2009 7,166 posts	Quote Pin Ultracat interesting thread, guess this type of training fits in fairly well with training for an ultra.
chirunner Oct 2009 9:02am, 10 Oct 2009 588 posts	Quote Pin chirunner 13 miles this morning (some testing hills at the end). Very steady at 8.13pace ave but my longest for many months. My simple benchmark if I am running aerobically (ie fat burning hadd mode) is to get up early have a coffee (no sugar) take a 500ml bottle of water and run, no sugar gels and get around to the end feeling fresh and not gasping for breakfast. So for me this pretty much happened today. Earlier in the year for marathon training I got this up to 20 miles on the same basis so I will keep extending each saturday to build up to longer aerobic runs with HR sub 140 or so.
P.E... Oct 2009 9:03am, 10 Oct 2009 292 posts	Quote Pin P.E... Good running Chi! I can't even run up the stairs without breakfast though
chirunner Oct 2009 9:12am, 10 Oct 2009 589 posts	Quote Pin chirunner "2. Breaking a molecule of glucose down into energy anaerobically is horrendously wasteful of fuel. It will result in fuel economy the equivalent of "2 miles per gallon". Breaking that exact same glucose molecule down into fuel aerobically results in "36 miles per gallon". If you are going far enough (HM or marathon), you better be as economical as possible and get as many miles as possible per gallon because otherwise you are going to run out of fuel and crash long before the finish line. Note that the muscle cells that are operating anaerobically will be unable to access your huge store of fat as a fuel (which would give you wayyy better than even 36 mpg). Fuel which would ensure you get to the 20 mile mark and still find you can pour it on. Think of it like this. Put the smallest compact car you can think of, and a Ferrari, side by side. Empty both fuel tanks, give both of them one gallon of fuel and tell them to go as far as possible. Which is gonna win? Since your LT measures at what pace you change over from aerobic to (increasingly more) anaerobically-fueled running, it is also a measure of when you stop being economical and become more and more uneconomical. So, we can also say that a low (poor) LT also means poor fuel economy." I started on hadd about 18 months ago when I could not run more than 4 miles without sugar drinks etc and the benefits of doing this for the blackpool marathon earlier this year was that I first needed sugar drink at 22 miles with water up to that point. Hadd really does seem to work.
jamborigg Oct 2009 9:13am, 10 Oct 2009 977 posts	Quote Pin jamborigg So when your in the middle of your training prog what sort of pace is used for races ,or do you just run them as you would normally ? Good running Chi 13 miles without breakfast, is this something that you have always done ?
Pammie Oct 2009 9:21am, 10 Oct 2009 6,430 posts	Quote Pin Pammie This is a really interesting thread and very glad it has re-surfaced it certainly appeals to me more than less miles/interval work I did dabble in this around 2004 (but drifted) definitely enjoyed it but tbh i didn't do enough miles for it to really work. so planning on going back to it in a way after a severe mojo crisis i'm buikding back uo the mies at the mo this is 3-4 miles but will gradually get up to 1-2½ hours a day (and possibly 3 hours in the new year towards marathon training) Athough at the mo i am not using HRM just running as i feel only missed one day this week and that was really only because there was literally no time at all. Due to life. One thing i found and people did comment on when i did this before was how even paced my races (and training runs) were.
Justinm Oct 2009 9:33am, 10 Oct 2009 276 posts	Quote Pin Justinm must have a read at this. Has anyone tried and tested this for ultra's? 40 miles and above
Gobi Oct 2009 9:38am, 10 Oct 2009 31,360 posts	Quote Pin Gobi Not really following the thread but have been training Lydiard style for a few years just spotted the running without breakfast stuff. My longest non breakfast run is 31miles, but when you start at 4am having had a later dinner(8pm) it is easier than you think.
chirunner Oct 2009 9:39am, 10 Oct 2009 590 posts	Quote Pin chirunner Jam,I am an ex 100m sprinter in my youth with just about zero "slow twitch" fibres for long distance capability. I had a couple of dreadful experiences 3 years back when on 9 mile runs I simply ran out of juice more than a mile from home such that I simply could not move an inch (a bit like hitting the wall in the mara) and had to take my shoes off and shuffle at about 20min/mile pace in real pain to get home. My first half marathon I needed 3 or 4 gels to get around and I simply hate the taste and effect on my stomach from taking on glucose gels and drinks. So I needed a plan B to run all my races without carbs/sugars and hadd training came along to meet this need. I followed a very inspirational thread on cool running where a chap called leitner from a standing start got to a position that he massively improved his times over marathons by the hadd training and ended up doing iron mans without any sugar/gels - it seemed ridiculous from where i was at - but I had a vision of what was possible. And so I ran for 6 months (and I mean 6 months!) at 10-11 minute mile pace to retrain my body to keep HR low enough to burn fat and not sugar. And hey presto I could run for 10 miles with no sugar drinks albeit at 10min miles. for the blackpool training I kept pushing up my weekend runs from 12 up to 20 miles with no breakfast to see the pace I could keep without needing sugar drinks and this meant keeping a pace no quicker than 8.30 and with a very low HR of 130 max. I then abandoned hadd from may to sep 2009 thinking I did not need it any more in search of pure 5k speed and to my cost I have lost a decent chunk of the fat burning/aerobic capacity I had. So for the past 2 weeks I have gone back to 9 min/mile super slow runs and so am delighted that the aerobic fatburning is coming back from the evidence of today's run. My sense is that this is a very minority interest area for most runners, at blackpool mara just about everyone around were using gels (in fact one chap was using 6 of them!) so it is horses for courses etc.
chirunner Oct 2009 9:46am, 10 Oct 2009 591 posts	Quote Pin chirunner To answer the question about ultras here was pasrt of the old thread from this chap leitnerj and his performance gains post hadd etc... coolrunning.com For the most part, by cutting back all of my training paces tremendously, I improved times in almost all race distance categories, over a period of about a year. Examples: 1 M: 6:16 -> 5:36 2 M: 13:36 -> 12:46 5k: 21:20 -> 20:08 10k: 48:46 -> 42:48 10M: 77:45 -> 69:12 marathon: 4:03 -> 3:11 50M: 10:34 -> 7:53 100M: 18:53 (no time before low HR training to compare to!) Also, over the past year, I've run 6 sub-3:20 marathons, whereas in the previous year, I struggled to break 4 hours.