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So who won the tour from 1999 to 2005

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Yorkshire Pie Aug 2012 10:29am, 24 Aug 2012 10,360 posts	Quote Pin Yorkshire Pie This is a genuine question to which I don’t know the answer – what is the standard of proof usually required in drugs cases? Do they need to prove it in a specific way (samples), do they need to prove it beyond reasonable doubt or do they just need to prove it on the balance of probabilities?
Mark J Aug 2012 10:30am, 24 Aug 2012 1,467 posts	Quote Pin Mark J IMO: If there's no concrete evidence (drug test results) and its just hear say, then he's still innocent. It's bloody ridiculous but guilt before proof is the American way after all.
Chrisull Aug 2012 10:32am, 24 Aug 2012 4,957 posts	Quote Pin Chrisull Old Croc - what a question! There is not an easy answer. I'd tend to say no to the proof, if you want evidence against that is admissible in a court of law... However the L'Equipe allegations, which are huge and very detailed: autobus.cyclingnews.com where anonymous samples from the 1999 were retrospectively tested for EPO with new tests and one of those found to be positive had a race number that matched Armstrong's (not just a 100 kind of race number), seems to indicate yes he did dope. However the method of testing breached what we be considered admissible in an arbitration process.
Yorkshire Pie Aug 2012 10:36am, 24 Aug 2012 10,361 posts	Quote Pin Yorkshire Pie This is what worries me about the whole thing. Regardless of whether he did or didn’t dope, I do feel a bit uneasy about the way USADA are dealing with it and whether the evidence they have is strong enough or admissible enough to justify the penalties they want to impose (which seem to go far beyond what other dopers have been given). Mind you, none of the other players are coming across as squeaky clean either…
Kimbles Aug 2012 10:37am, 24 Aug 2012 2,163 posts	Quote Pin Kimbles What Johnny O said. Look at the speculation that was piled on that young Chinese girl in the swimming at the Olympics. Everyone hinted that there was no way that she could have completed her time without the aid of drugs. That again comes down to guilt by association. The Chinese have doped before, therefore she must have been doped as well. Its a very unfair outlook on sport. I agree that there are athletes out there who dope and will go to any lenghts to cover it up and deny it - the Greek athletes are a prime example of that - but there are others who are genuinely good at what they do and are hounded because they cant possible be "that good". With Armstrong, the USADA and Tygart are chasing a conviction for something that happened after their window of 8 years for pursuing a doping charge under USADA rules. They couldnt prove it then so they will continue to puruse it now. If the traces they found due to the cancer treatment, they could pretty much be said to be penalising him for being sick and then getting better. It will be interesting to see what the outcome is of those races and what happens to the titles.
The Teaboy Aug 2012 10:39am, 24 Aug 2012 886 posts	Quote Pin The Teaboy sportsscientists.com - Best sport science site on the web. Two PhDs who know their stuff. Some insightful articles on Armstrong, doping in general, and the proper science behind Pistorius too (no he shouldn't run in able bodied events - and they are fellow Boks so no axe to grind). Not to mention, the best analysis of endurance performance data from major events I have seen.
Velociraptor Aug 2012 11:01am, 24 Aug 2012 21,322 posts	Quote Pin Velociraptor The "I'm tired of fighting" thing lacks plausibility. I assume that Mr Armstrong has been advised that if he persists in challenging the allegations, secretly-filmed footage of him shooting up and force-feeding his teammates with PEDs will find their way into the public domain. Disappointed. He's someone I've always wanted to be genuinely clean because he's talked the talk so loudly.
JohnnyO Aug 2012 11:08am, 24 Aug 2012 13,698 posts	Quote Pin JohnnyO Probably so. But Tygart has said that they may release the evidence anyway. I think Lance is sticking two fingers up at USADA as he doesn't recognise their authority. I also think that he would have had difficulty getting a fair trial by the process described by USADA. I also think he probably did dope. FWIW. And that probably is part of the problem when it come to arbitration. Find someone who knows anything about these things that doesnt already have an opinion.
Chrisull Aug 2012 11:15am, 24 Aug 2012 4,959 posts	Quote Pin Chrisull I'm with V'rap, for me what lingering hopes and twigs to cling on to, were swept away with the "I'm too tired to fight". Up until recently he had been competing in and loving (according to his tweets) triathlons. He his now banned from life for doing them. A trivial side issue, but surely an infringement on your own freedoms? One worth fighting for? Also If I had won 7 tour de frances clean, and someone was trying to alleged I doped, I'd go to my grave to fight for my innocence. At the same time, can I still say I hope he isn't stripped of his tours, as Beloki and Ullrich, two of his beaten 2nd places were also dopers, the results should stand, and it doesn't totally destroy his achievements in my eyes. I watched all those events at the time, they don't suddenly become non-events, without drama, because they were all on drugs.
Kimbles Aug 2012 11:23am, 24 Aug 2012 2,165 posts	Quote Pin Kimbles His full statement: bit.ly/Ozm7XZ