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Apr 2020
6:11pm, 28 Apr 2020
30,104 posts
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SPR
Why not Brunski? That's pretty much what I do.
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Apr 2020
6:20pm, 28 Apr 2020
2,230 posts
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Canute
Chrisull,
Because of the eccentric contraction at foot-fall, resilience of leg muscles is one of the most crucial aspects of fitness for running long distances.
In my experience , resilience does deteriorate when you do not do long runs. In the past year I have done very little running on roads. I have mostly run modest distances on very soft surfaces. On Sunday, I ran 9 Km on roads and to my surprise, my legs were aching mildly but noticeably at the end. Fortunately, I did not suffer any DOMS subsequently. If I want to run long distances on roads again, I anticipate that I will need to build up distance in a graded manner to avoid risk of injury. However I would hope that with many years of running behind me, I would re-establish resilience reasonably quickly.
Brunski, I think that a polarised approach can work even for a runner who can do only 6 hours per week. I think that Lydiard’s concept of periodization is sensible. I consider that base building after any appreciable layoff is necessary for developing resilience in any distance runner. This should largely be at low intensity, though I usually included a small amount of relaxed sprinting even during base building. After adequate base-building, when preparing for a short race, it might be reasonable to increase the proportion of high intensity above 20% during a relatively brief sharpening up phase. But if a person does not have much time for training I consider that maintaining more than 20% high intensity for many weeks is unnecessarily risky.
I think that too much high intensity is a major contributor to the high incidence of injury among recreational runners who can only devote a limited time to training. I have been intrigued by the development of HIIT in the past decade. It appears to produce good increases in VO2max and several other indices of fitness in people with limited training time, but I am very dubious about employing it as the major component of preparation for distance running because of under-development of leg muscle resilience.
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Apr 2020
6:29pm, 28 Apr 2020
3,398 posts
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FenlandRunner
Canute, 'only' six hours a week is a not an incconsiderable amount for a recreational runner.
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Apr 2020
7:34pm, 28 Apr 2020
2,231 posts
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Canute
The six hours per week was in response to Brunski's comment. I would make similar recommendations regarding a polarised approach for people with even less time, as the risk of injury is likely to be greater for those with less time to build a base.
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Apr 2020
7:51pm, 28 Apr 2020
1,674 posts
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Brunski
Thanks for the responses, I’d agree 6 hours a week isn’t a small amount, it’s probably about what most people can run a week.
I’m just not certain that someone like me who has in the past ran 70 or 80 miles a week in a training block, and currently run around 50 just ticking over, would benefit more by dropping that to say 40-45 with slower miles, keeping the easy really easy (say 60-70% max HR) rather than easy/steady (averaging around 70, but sometimes up to 75% max).
I’m capable of handling higher training loads and my easy definitely gets easier in high mileage weeks, so I totally get how running 90-120 minutes a day easy with a couple hours hard would be excellent training for someone running 12 hours a week. I’m just not so sure halving that to 45-60 minutes a day very easy would be the best use of training time in my scenario.
I definitely agree with periodisation as well Canute and have had excellent results just from base building and very little speed.
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Apr 2020
7:56pm, 28 Apr 2020
16,051 posts
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Chrisull
Ta Canute. Yes I do bounce back quickly too, but it's annoying having to work up from 10-11 again after in Feb doing 20 miles relatively easily. Ah well, that's the way it's got to be.
Which leads to a follow up. So walking for roughly double the amount of time produces similar leg pains. Would walking large periods of time produce similar adaptations in resilience (albeit without the cardiac benefit), or are they always going to be somewhat inferior?
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Apr 2020
10:41pm, 28 Apr 2020
2,232 posts
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Canute
Walking definitely helps. In my younger days I occasionally did substantial walking trips lasting two weeks or so, walking many hours per day with a heavy pack, and found that those trips increased my general resilience. However, at least in principle, walking is far less efficient way to increase leg muscle resilience because the eccentric forces at each footfall are much less.
Maybe you would prefer not to compare yourself with a veteran, but as an old-timer, I am encouraged by the experience of John Keston, He just missed out on becoming the first runner over age 70 to break 3 hours for the marathon, when he recorded 3:00:58 at age 71 in 1996. Shortly afterwards, his running career was almost ended by a road traffic accident. Over period of several years he built up again with a program that involved a lot of walking in the forest. At age 76 he set a world ‘single year’ age group record for the marathon. Four years later, at age 80 he ran a mile in 6:48 and also set a world half marathon age group record of 1:39:27. I am very encouraged by the major part that walking has played in keeping him in great shape..
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May 2020
11:47pm, 2 May 2020
16,073 posts
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Chrisull
15 miles this weekend, way easier than last weekend's 13, and over hillier terrain. Did an 8 mile walk after the 13 last weekend, might be my imagination, but it definitely helped, mentally as much as physically perhaps, but even so time on my feet helps.
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May 2020
10:46am, 14 May 2020
3,741 posts
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Dillthedog
Can I please ask a question ref training frequency? Matt Fitzgerald's book includes training plans from 5k to marathon, the majority of which include training every day of the week. In the 10K plan, many of these training sessions are relatively short, eg 30 - 45 mins. So, to take the 6 hour weekly training above, is there a benefit to training every day, averaging about 50 mins, or 5 days and average 70 mins?
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May 2020
3:52pm, 14 May 2020
3,922 posts
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Kieren
@Dillthedog - I think it would depend what you are planning to get from the training sessions - for example:
If you have 2 quality days for speed work (intervals / repeats), you have a training stimulus to overload and get faster.
Then you may have a long steady run to build resilience and endurance
The rest might be recovery - short zone 2 runs? These contribute to total volume and resilience / endurnace but are prehaps not as critical as specific / quality training runs
I would expect someone injury prone or new might want to skip some recovery run days for total rest or some form of cross training until the legs are used to it or they need to get total mileage up.
If the days 5 or 7 all average the same, then is there a stimulus to overload or a gap in training (volume / intensity) to recover sufficiently?
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So for example, I am 5 weeks into Jack Daniels "red" general fitness plan. I't one level up from beginner and has 2 quality sessions a week and one recovery run. It's from his book which also has 5K plans but they start at 65KM per week and I don't have the resilience for that weekly distance yet
I try to run 5-6 days a week and reach about 45KM / just over 4 hours - in term of polarized / Pareto it is perhaps a bit heavy in the intensity
The next 4 weeks look like for me:
T = (repeats at lactate threshold pace - unlike an interval, I rest / walk before the next one)
Mon = 30 minutes Easy (E) with 6 20s strides + 1 min rest at the end
Tue = optional - repeat Monday (i rest)
Wed = 10 min E then 2 Miles @ T + 2 mins rest, then 1 Mile @ T, 10 min cooldown
Thur = optional - repeat Monday (I run this one)
Fri = 10 min E then 2x 1 Miles @ T w/1 min rest after each, then 2x 1KM @ T with 1 min rest and 10 min easy cd
Sat = optional - repeat Monday ( I tend to run)
Sun = Easy run at 10K (I tend to run this steady or progression rather than easy)
I think in this plan, ideally one would be running all the optional days but perhaps not until the runner has some experience or durability.
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80/20
Jun 2019