Elite Athletics Thread

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SPR
SPR
Apr 2018
2:36pm, 19 Apr 2018
26,013 posts
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SPR
Uyuni - The women's only record exists precisely for that reason.

Larkim - Most races shorter than marathon aren't raced (as opposed to a WR TT attempt) at faster than WR pace so that's a red herring.
paul the builder
paul the builder
Apr 2018
2:37pm, 19 Apr 2018
6,378 posts
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paul the builder
Lark - one of the things you said last page was an acknowlegdement of the benficial effects of running in a group for reducing wind resistance. That's *much* more of a factor at 2:5 than it is at 3:05, and that's another reason (outside of 'racing', and keeping open the shot of something extraordinary) why Mo would go with 61:30; he can get some help reducing drag by being in a bunch.

On gender of pacers - I was with Uyuni (until his #1354 and talking about a second set for the second half :-o;-)).
Men pacing women *is* materially different from men pacing men. Because they're so far from their capability, they can go further. Or more easily, which means even more favourably for the pacee (e.g. changing lines to allow racing lines to be stuck to, or reacting to changing wind direction, whatever). Plus, they're likely to be significantly larger, so drag reduction is a greater effect per pacer.

A reasonable principle seems to be that any pacers need to be in the same race. Same start line and time. Same route. And yes, same gender.
If you don't agree - and think gender of pacers doesn't matter: would you accept a machine if it did exactly the same job?
SPR
SPR
Apr 2018
2:45pm, 19 Apr 2018
26,014 posts
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SPR
Larkim - Further to your fear about Farah, he shouldn't give stuff what the press will think. Making decisions based on what if goes wrong is generally a bad idea.
paul the builder
paul the builder
Apr 2018
2:46pm, 19 Apr 2018
6,379 posts
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paul the builder
And I can see the argument has moved on to an acknowledgement that it's different, but that's it's somehow unfair because not as many women run within X minutes of marathon WR each year...?

So what? It is what it is. That's no reason at all to bend what seems a sound principle (you've got to be in the same race). Imagine a future where the situation is reversed and more women are within X minutes of the WR. What are you going to do then for the men?
larkim
larkim
Apr 2018
2:55pm, 19 Apr 2018
4,454 posts
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larkim
Actually, PTB, a robotic pacer I would 100% agree with actually, for both men and women. I think ultimately that's the "right" answer.

I take your points about size etc, but they are peripheral and *relatively* minor in the grand scheme of things. I've said in the other posts I think there should be a max distance that pacers can go to, and would apply this to men and women partly to remove that "comfort" factor.

Fair point about Mo getting protection though from the group and does make 61:30 look more like 62:00 for effort. Though equally that applies to everyone else in the race, and some of them know that they are capable of low 2:03s, so whilst they might be equally benefitting from the group wind resistance impact, they may still be disproportionately running easier to that stage.

In terms of WR paces etc to respond to SPR's point - I was picking up the point that you suggested Mo is there to race not to time trial. My point about the WRs that a road marathon set up the way London and Berlin are are fundamentally *not* true races, they are set up as WR attempts disguised as a race. Or at least they are weighted towards that end of the spectrum.

So the fundamentals of a "race" in London are not what Farah has really experienced much before. Putting aside PTBs point about the group effect of wind resitance the best way to place as high as you can in a marathon is to run even paced to your best effort surely? There's no point in sacrificing 60s of time just to be "in the mix" if it results in you dropping places in the last 3 miles.
larkim
larkim
Apr 2018
2:58pm, 19 Apr 2018
4,455 posts
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larkim
I wasn't projecting Farah's worries about media expectations, just predicting what I think the media would say about him if they (because they are stupid!) don't recognise a good performance from him, even if it isn't achieved in the way that they might like with him in the lead group the whole way. Cardiff was a good example of that, which someone recently reminded me of. He ran his own race and got the best out of himself, but "only" came in 3rd and wasn't really lauded for his performance that day. I could see the same happening on Sunday.
SPR
SPR
Apr 2018
3:00pm, 19 Apr 2018
26,015 posts
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SPR
I don't get the logic of a max distance, you can have help but we think up to the line is too much?

Fair point about London, but it's still what the best are capable of and he want to test himself against them. If he blows early, he knows he has a long way to go, late, he has some work to do. Not at all, then he's almost where he wants to be.
SailorSteve
SailorSteve
Apr 2018
3:01pm, 19 Apr 2018
891 posts
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SailorSteve
Larkim - your last paragraph would seem to be at odds with the winner's tactics at Boston on Monday.
SailorSteve
SailorSteve
Apr 2018
3:02pm, 19 Apr 2018
892 posts
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SailorSteve
Referring to Larks 4454
larkim
larkim
Apr 2018
3:07pm, 19 Apr 2018
4,456 posts
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larkim
SS - I think Yuki did exactly what I suggested (though of course even pace in the weather and hills at Boston does make it different). He ran his own race, got himself to the finish line in the best time he could achieve and didn't get distracted what others (well, just one other in Kirui) were doing. It happened to result in a victory because Kirui judged it wrong.

Had Yuki gone with Kirui at 18 miles or so, he might have had the same detonation that Kirui had - though we'll never know.

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