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Feb 2023
9:53pm, 3 Feb 2023
62,495 posts
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Velociraptor
The undoubtedly important issue of where transwomen (who are ALL biologically male, by definition) should pee/change/be supported when they are victims of domestic violence or crime/be imprisoned when convicted of a crime) isn't one that it's OK to solve by telling women to budge up, be kind, and let a group of biological males into our legally established single sex spaces. Nor is it for women to take responsibility for providing an alternative solution unless employed with the remit of doing so.
17% of women in the EHRC survey were uncomfortable about sharing public toilets with transwomen. If women's public toilets effectively become mixed sex, this is a substantial absolute number of women who would be unable to use those facilities. Those women cannot all be brushed off as transphobes and bigots. Many will have sound reasons to need single sex facilities based on cultural issues or their previous life experience.
Most males do not pose a threat to women, but the fact that some males, including some transwomen (whose offending behaviour is statistically similar to that of other males), DO pose a threat to women is the reason for women needing single sex spaces.
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Feb 2023
9:54pm, 3 Feb 2023
27,768 posts
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Serendippily
Generally i’m all for discussion but this brings back a lot of the section 28 stuff i grew up with and its often hard to hear. You can see the volatility on both sides, and there are people more at risk on both sides as a result of the volatility of the discussion. I always feel safer in single sex cubicles in mixed spaces and can see the harm single changing rooms in pe can still do
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Feb 2023
9:55pm, 3 Feb 2023
62,496 posts
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Velociraptor
And "cis" is calculated offensiveness. Women are not a subset of our own sex.
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Feb 2023
10:08pm, 3 Feb 2023
40,135 posts
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Pinks
Stepping away, if you want to think I'm being offensive, whatever. I believe that women are trans or cis. I'm a cis woman. I support trans women, trans men and non binary folk.
I'm happy to have open conversations, listen to other people's opinions, but trying to shut a conversation down by saying I calculated offensiveness is enough for me to know it won't be an open conversation.
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Feb 2023
10:41pm, 3 Feb 2023
22,086 posts
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Carpathius
Can we please remember we're talking about actual people here, not abstract ideas?
There are trans Fetchies who are likely feeling that their identities have been erased by some of the comments on this thread.
Yes, there is discussion to be had about the rights of ciswomen and the rights of transwomen because in several places they collide - and I don't know the answer.
I do believe that starting from "transwomen are men" is ever going to help.
I'm really not trying to chastise anyone here, although I don't think I've expressed what I'm trying to say properly.
I did want to add a voice directed at trans or nonbinary Fetchies reading this thread saying that you are thought about.
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Feb 2023
10:47pm, 3 Feb 2023
22,087 posts
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Carpathius
That fourth paragraph should read "I don't believe[...]"
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Feb 2023
10:51pm, 3 Feb 2023
2,107 posts
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RooA
I didn't ask to have "trans" and "cis" explained to me. I asked for clarity on how someone can be trans but *not* the opposite sex to their gender identity? Because I thought that was what being trans is?
If it isn't, then perhaps someone can enlighten me on the difference between a woman and a transwoman? What's the trans prefix for if transwomen aren't male then?
Because open conversations can only happen if we nail down some meaningful definitions really, no?
And I never said "men", I said "male".
If someone said "transwomen aren't men" that's an opinion, fine whatever. But "transwomen aren't male" is nonsensical? Because if they were female they wouldn't be transwomen? They'd be women.
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Feb 2023
7:05am, 4 Feb 2023
47,155 posts
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DocM
Maybe we need a separate transgender support thread. Where transgender folk and their allies can chat about the issues affecting their lives in a safe space away from TERFs and trolls. And where those who genuinely want to know how they can help enrich the lives of those who are finding it difficult, can gain some insight, There are lots of races for example which are now opening up open or non binary options and sharing this knowledge would be so much more positive rather than this hideous discussion which is so destructive to people who may already be going through something awful and for who access to safe sport would be good for their wellbeing. The last thing they need is to come to a running website where they are faced with this
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Feb 2023
7:09am, 4 Feb 2023
47,156 posts
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DocM
And perhaps have a look at the very first posts of this thread. .....
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Feb 2023
8:07am, 4 Feb 2023
2,108 posts
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RooA
There IS a seperate trans support thread. And I have refrained from going on there even when someone was being very rude about me on it. I have no interest I'm invading a support thread to ask questions. This thread has been, for the whole time I have looked at it, a discussion thread to talk about how transgender athletes have impacted women's sports. However it started out. The support thread has already diverged from this one.
It is discussion of women's rights in all this that people attempt to shut down over and over again. As if "safe and fair" for women is so disgusting that it should not be spoken of.
And I'm sorry but saying "transwomen are not male" is something that needs a bit of explaining because "transwomen are not men" is an understandable statement in the context but "transwomen are not male" is just....what? Because the fact they are male is the whole point of the fact they are trans isn't it???
When you say faced with "this"... what is "this" exactly? What is being said that is so egregious? It looks to me like a discussion of the reality of sexed bodies and how they interact with fairness in sport? And, in the last pages, how some women are uncomfortable with male bodies in spaces where they are vulnerable however those male people present, which is a true statement... some women are deeply uncomfortable with this. Surely all sensible trans people are aware of their history and understand that they have a sexed body as well as their gender identity? And understand that this might have an impact on others? Surely we don't need to actually stop talking about how our sexed bodies have impacts on how we go through the world in order to avoid offending people? Because it is really important for women's rights that we can keep talking about the reality of sexed bodies. And it's just reality.
I'd like to know where we can have this discussion because every time it comes up I get told "this isn't an appropriate thread to talk about this".
All that has been said is "some women are uncomfortable with any male people in their traditionally single sex spaces, even if those male people identify as women". And some of us have said that this is a good enough reason for us to preserve single sex spaces so that women who can't share a mixed sex space can continue to live full lives in the public sphere.
Is that really so egregious?
And then I have asked to have the idea that transwomen are, in fact, male explained to me because I do not understand that statement.
That's all "all this" has been.
Where can we have this discussion?
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Gender identity, please help change
Jun 2021