Transgender Athletes

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Sep 2021
10:19pm, 30 Sep 2021
1,508 posts
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Vixx
I'm honestly going to save my mental health here and debate as and when I may feel string enough. Trans people are taking a battering generally at the moment and I also have family issues to work on.

Briefly though, I feel a debate has to happen WITH US and not in our absence by people who have no idea of what we go through in life. Science and consistent research HAS to happen to have a better idea of things - and a lot of what I am hearing about todays report is that next to no transpeople have been consulted, so without talking to us, how do you know EXACTLY what needs to be looked at long term? This could yet be a temporary issue as the next generation of trans people might only have one puberty and not two, thus have no real advantage or disadvantage. Then you might be looking at open discrimination.

And there aren't even enough trans people at the sharp end yet for it to be a daily contention. For most of us, sport is an escape from the day to day hatred that we get, the insistence that we don't belong in society, the people who would rather we be dead. Take that away from us, or stop us from having the social aspect, and I think more trans people potentially would be.

Being as many elite sports have issues with doping then should there be a competitive element at all?

I don't know but am getting tired of debating with people who just want to be right. We are human beings too.
Sep 2021
11:01pm, 30 Sep 2021
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RooA
Well I'm very sorry you feel that way Vixx because I would have been interested to have the discussion with you. But you must take care of you and yours as a priority, of course. Thank you for taking the time to respond anyway.
Sep 2021
11:18pm, 30 Sep 2021
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The_Saint
I believe that women can enter the British Open Golf Championship, does this count as "open"?
Oct 2021
9:12am, 1 Oct 2021
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Grast_girl
I sympathise Vixx, it's a complex issue, and as you say, trans people do seem to be largely excluded from the discussion.

I particularly worry about trans people's safety if there is an open category in addition to male and female in individual sports.

With running, it's easy to look up race results, so there will be incredibly nasty people who will use it as a way to find trans people to harass, assault or worse. Therefore, I would favour everyone being entered in the open category by default, with the results listed in one list. Then, if people are interested in competing for prizes, they can indicate which category they want to be considered for. The prizes would be listed separately, so there's a least a small effort required to infer if someone might be trans, which might be quite likely if they're near the front, but less so for the age category prizes.

This would still require trans people to voluntarily exclude themselves from a prize category, which might be asking a lot if their safety is in jeopardy by doing so, but I can't see how race organisers can accurately monitor whether people are in the correct category anyway.
Oct 2021
9:42am, 1 Oct 2021
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RooA
The suggestion is not for an Open category AND a male category. It is to make the TWO categories Female and Open. A move to protect fairness and safety for females but providing a non-sex specific category for all others. I can't see how that would be an issue. Female athletes could "run up" into the open category if they so wished but the Female category would remain the reserve of females.

If someone thinks everyone should be able to enter their preferred class based on their gender identity it should be said with the recognition that that is detrimental to fairness, and in some cases, safety for females. It is completely fine if that is an opinion a person holds but... let us be honest about what it means.

Grast girl, how would your everyone in together model work for team sports? It is not so far from what already happens at running type events after all. All it would mean is that slower athletes who are not going to be on a prize list would not know what their placing within their sex and age category was.

British Kick Boxing have said they are keeping to gender identity-based categories. So it is quite possible that other sports organisations will decide the same.
Oct 2021
10:34am, 1 Oct 2021
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The_Saint
Effectively in many sports an open category already exists, didn't Sarah Taylor play for Surrey second 11?
We can quibble about whether equestrianism, motor racing, darts and snooker are sports in the same way as running but don't women compete with the men?
Oct 2021
11:36am, 1 Oct 2021
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RooA
equalityinsport.org

The report itself is worth a full read. It seems to have consulted the opinions of a wide range of individuals representing a wide range of organisations. It provides a strong acknowledgement to the challenges trans people feel that they face, particularly reported hostility within male sport. But it also concludes, as has been discussed, that it is not possible to square the circle when trying to balance fairness and safety for female athletes and inclusion in accordance with gender identity for transwomen athletes. But there was no hostility expressed by those interviewed towards trans people generally and towards trans people taking part on sport, just concern about the female sex class being protected to maintain fairness and safety.

Essentially we reach an impasse and a choice.

To open this on my phone I had to copy and paste the link into the address bar then opt to download the file rather than view in browser.
Oct 2021
11:57am, 1 Oct 2021
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The_Saint
"6. FRUSTRATION, ANIMOSITY AND EMOTION
The level of frustration, animosity and emotionality was high in the many of interviews. There was a lot of swearing, shouting, crying and anxiety displayed during interviews. A significant number of interviewees said that they would only be involved if anonymity was assured because people were afraid to say in public what they privately believed. The overwhelming majority of people who considered fairness and safety could not be achieved with transgender inclusion into female sport did not feel confident to voice these opinions. Some said that they had been threatened with sanction or disciplinary action if they spoke out. Many of the interviewees who held positions with sporting agencies said their personal opinions were in direct conflict with that of their employer or agency’s stated position, many felt they had no option but to remain silent in order to keep their job. This was a frequently voiced frustration which regularly reduced the interviewee to tears or hostility. Ethnically diverse people were unhappy that their concerns were often minimised, and it was yet another example of how they were “last on the list”. Other interviewees were cautious of involvement in this process as they did not wish to see any suggestion that the involvement in sport of transgender people, transgender women especially, put at risk. Some wanted guarantees of affirmative action. Within the current environment it is unlikely to see pro-inclusion groups reach their objective of inclusion and acceptance because of the latent toxicity which has been generated. Some interviewees considered that the perception of transgender inclusion in society had deteriorated as a result of policies forcing inclusion before the implications were thought through."
Oct 2021
1:52pm, 1 Oct 2021
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Grast_girl
I was thinking specifically about road racing RooA because that's the sport I know most about. Team sports are definitely a different kettle of fish.

I haven't read the report, so these thoughts are entirely my own and based on not being likely to win in any category, so I'm always competing with myself (WAVA scores) or with "rivals" who get similar times regardless of category.

Having a distinctly female name in an open category (vs female) could open people to abuse (trans or otherwise), which is why I thought a single results listing was safest. The category you're competing in can then be known only to the small number of people who have access to the information.

I think the two category system you're talking about is used in English Martial Arts (sword fighting), where I know some women who can hold their own against the men despite significant size differences and so on, but are only likely to win in the female only category. It's a sport that's mostly based on speed and technique though, and injuries should be few and far between if you're doing it right.
Oct 2021
2:13pm, 1 Oct 2021
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RooA
I recommend a reading of the report.

The Saint has pulled out a section that I found particularly troubling. Open and honest conversation is the only that we get to any kind of solution and it appears that people have been actively silenced from expressing their sincerely held opinions.

They interviewed a very broad swathe of people including 20 trans individuals. A number of these trans individuals were "stridently" opposed to transwomen competing in the female category citing that it was unfair and actually jeapodised trans acceptance in sport. QUOTE "Interestingly, some of the most strident views expressed in this area came from

transgender women. These respondents were adamant that the category generally referred to as

self-ID transgender women had done irreparable damage to the cause of integrating transgender

women into female sport"

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