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Jun 2021
3:57pm, 23 Jun 2021
7,881 posts
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The Great Raemondo
Offence can also be committed.
Like deliberately misgendering people.
You've literally just admitted that you're aware you're likely to be insulting fellow fetchies.
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Jun 2021
3:57pm, 23 Jun 2021
26,238 posts
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fetcheveryone
"Offence is taken not given" is not a justification to say whatever you feel without considering the feelings of others.
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Jun 2021
4:04pm, 23 Jun 2021
14,883 posts
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larkim
MsG - I like the way you've set that out, I'll have to consider that further.
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Jun 2021
4:06pm, 23 Jun 2021
7,883 posts
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The Great Raemondo
My understanding MsG, and of course I'll admit that I'm as guilty of confirmation bias as everyone in this area, was that there's still significant debate over whether or not studies do show transwomen retain a significant advantage after a year of hormone therapy and when their T levels are significantly below the top of the normal cisfemale range.
I'm also not sure that there's as neat a definition of 'biological' maleness or femaleness as simple XX or XY chromosomes.
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Jun 2021
4:06pm, 23 Jun 2021
280 posts
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Fopp
I did consider the feelings of others but being aware of the fact it might offend doesn't mean I understand why so airing ones views might help in that regard.
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Jun 2021
4:13pm, 23 Jun 2021
1,775 posts
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auburnette
@jda, then i would consider those people to have cheated, maybe not intentionally but without regard and respect to others' rights to fair competition.
Equally, you might have competed against someone who was doping but never got found out, doesn't mean the competition was fair or that doping should have become accepted practice.
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Jun 2021
4:17pm, 23 Jun 2021
6,759 posts
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Dooogs
Fopp: I'm cisplaining here, admitttedly, but a definition of misgendering is:
"to refer to (someone, especially a transgender person) using a word, especially a pronoun or form of address, that does not correctly reflect the gender with which they identify."
... and I imagine it would be incredibly upsetting and undermining for a trans person's self-declared identity to be denied by another person insisting, for example, "you're not a trans woman, you're a man".
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Jun 2021
4:24pm, 23 Jun 2021
1,368 posts
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Vixx
Transmen have T levels kept lower than biological men. Recommended level is between 1520 nmol/l
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Jun 2021
4:24pm, 23 Jun 2021
14,884 posts
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larkim
The aspect that auburnette raises is one that's blindsided me in the past as I'm conscious that men responding to this debate can do so from a position of being utterly unaffected.
Having discussed this with other women who are runners I have had a mixed response with some happy to compete (and lose) to a transwoman and others who would be unhappy that a transwoman was competing with them for position. I'd made a typically personal assumption that competing for position 48 out of 127 was irrelevant and meaningless, but it's clearly not (for everyone).
I'd even assumed competing for first woman v45 wasn't something that anyone would be bothered about losing to a transwoman. Incorrect assumptions on my part. None of that would bother me *even if I was a woman* because all I care about is time. But dismissing people who care about that concept isn't right either, and certainly dismissing it out of hand and accusing someone of transphobia isn't the right answer to it.
Whether anyone can advocate for the transwoman in that situation and persuade people who hold the same view as auburnette to change their minds is the real question.
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Jun 2021
4:32pm, 23 Jun 2021
281 posts
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Fopp
I take your point Doogs. What do I do if I don't think they are a woman? In a one on one interaction I am not going to deliberately insult a person, if they introduce themselves as Doris I will call them Doris. If however they asked me directly whether I considered them to be a woman, I would say no. A real conversation would not be that clinical though, if I liked Doris then I am sure we'd just have a laugh about it and I'd explain that it really doesn't matter what I think because you're just a nice person to me and I have no interest in what you are as long as you don't enter the women's egg and spoon race.
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Gender identity, please help change
Jun 2021