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Jun 2021
12:53pm, 23 Jun 2021
7,876 posts
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The Great Raemondo
Fopp, when you dismiss this whole subject as 'nonsense' that's hostile and transphobic.
Please do better.
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Jun 2021
12:54pm, 23 Jun 2021
28,087 posts
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HellsBells
Fopp please can you regulate your word choice a little?
Dismissing other people’s lived experience as “nonsense” is unhelpful. People do want to hear your views, all views should be heard, but please try and be a little more respectful in your language
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Jun 2021
12:57pm, 23 Jun 2021
26,235 posts
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fetcheveryone
Fopp: Raemondo and HB have said what I was about to say. Please be considerate.
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Jun 2021
12:58pm, 23 Jun 2021
1,208 posts
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RooA
Transwomen athletes are allowed up to 5nmol/L testosterone. Reduced from 10nmol/L in 2019.
The range in females is 0.3 to 2.4nmol/L.
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Jun 2021
12:58pm, 23 Jun 2021
34,549 posts
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SPR
This is precisely why the debate needed to be away from the safe space.
What PtB said.
I don't think anyone has said what it's like to be trans or anyone's personal experience. Male to female performance in sport is quantifiable by science and that's what the debate is about.
Presumably nobody thinks that self identification without any treatment to transition is enough for fair competition when including MtF athletes in the female category? So there has to be some research to say what's appropriate?
As for Vixx point about the para-athlete, it probably is because she is a para-athlete which means it won't gain as much traction in the news. Just like in many sports the male category gets more media traction than the female category. I don't actually know how good she is but based on hoping to qualify, it would suggest she's the equivalent of Hubbard who would be hoping to medal?
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Jun 2021
12:59pm, 23 Jun 2021
34,550 posts
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SPR
Vixx "Transwomen are not allowed to have any testosterone in their bodies when they compete."
My understanding is the same as RooA's on this point?
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Jun 2021
1:09pm, 23 Jun 2021
7,877 posts
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The Great Raemondo
Actually many cis female rugby players that I know would be absolutely fine with self identification being enough for our trans teammates to be 'allowed' to play with us - the beauty of rugby is that people of wildly different physiology can play together safely and effectively, because while it's a full contact sport where we're definitely trying to get the best of our opponents, we're also not (mostly, particularly in the women's game) violent sociopaths who want to hurt people. It's possible for a flanker to tackle a scrum half (and indeed vice versa) quite safely.
For all female rugby players the biggests risks to our safety are the systematic deprioritisation of our sport in terms of coaching and reffing, access to decent quality pitches training equipment, male club mates objectifying and assaulting us, or just the fact that as women we're not encouraged to take strength and conditioning training that would protect us from injury as seriously as male players are - not the gender our teammates were assigned at birth.
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Jun 2021
1:11pm, 23 Jun 2021
1,366 posts
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Vixx
I stand corrected. Thank you for letting me know.
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Jun 2021
1:33pm, 23 Jun 2021
1,866 posts
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MsG
To pick up about the point on Caster's testerone levels, it's a bit of a red herring. I understand that that Caster has a DSD (disorder of sexual development), so is actually biologically male with undescended testes. Therefore I think that the issue of testerone levels in athletes with DSD should be dealt with separately to trans athletes.
Re rugby, I understood the position of World Rugby was not to allow trans women to compete with women?
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Jun 2021
1:36pm, 23 Jun 2021
14,880 posts
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larkim
Again, I'll keep referring people to the podcast linked. Ross Tucker has advised South African Rugby as a professional advisor and has some good insights on that sport in particular.
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Gender identity, please help change
Jun 2021