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Transgender Athletes

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westmoors Jun 2021 7:12pm, 22 Jun 2021 5,182 posts	Quote Pin westmoors Maybe a classification system is required like there is for para-athletes. Remove the gender identity all together.
MsG Jun 2021 7:29pm, 22 Jun 2021 1,864 posts	Quote Pin MsG I think Ross covers the suggestion of just having open class competition. That would eliminate competitive women's sport almost entirely. Whatever you use for classification e.g. weight, height or age will end up giving the male physiology an advantage. That's why there are separate categories based on sex (with the caveat around what we're discussing here). There has been a suggestion of female (bio only) category and then everyone else but this doesn't get much support from trans activist comments that I've seen - there could be more widespread support I haven't seen. I believe there are some sports where this isn't the case such as dressage iirc.
larkim Jun 2021 8:50pm, 22 Jun 2021 14,863 posts	Quote Pin larkim Show jumping and equestrianism more generally isn't split into male and female competition is it? Not just dressage.
MsG Jun 2021 9:05pm, 22 Jun 2021 1,865 posts	Quote Pin MsG I couldn't remember off the top of my head which it was larkim, hence the 'such as'
RooA Jun 2021 9:37pm, 22 Jun 2021 1,203 posts	Quote Pin RooA Equestrian sport is not split by sex. Apart from, I think, in the case of some western rodeo disciplines where the physicality of the rider is more likely to come into play... I'm going to go look into that because I suspect there is sex segregation there where it is not necessary. There's no significant male advantage when you're using the muscle power of another animal... and extra height and reach and difference in skeletal structure etc etc etc also have less of a part to play. It's interesting that you do still get a clustering of male riders at the top of the sports though, particularly showjumping and eventing. But it's a complex picture to pick apart in equestrianism.
larkim Jun 2021 8:57am, 23 Jun 2021 14,866 posts	Quote Pin larkim Maybe the whole difficulty in this is that for years sport has been segregated between "male" and "female" in name, but the reality is that it has been separated in "post male puberty" and "post female puberty", it's just that we don't think about it in those terms. If Tucker's data are correct and there are physiological gains through a "male" puberty period that simply cannot be corrected for (currently) by (safe and acceptable) hormone treatments or other interventions then we'll continually be at an impasse. Showjumping etc is interesting as there is clearly something inherent in the sport which creates an equality which overcomes some of the traditionally "male" or "female" traits. There are probably good reasons to be "strong" as a rider, but also possibly good reasons to be "light", and perhaps it's the interplay between those two things which means they balance each other out. Though I'm sure it's more complex than my simplification.
RooA Jun 2021 9:10am, 23 Jun 2021 1,204 posts	Quote Pin RooA Yes, larkim. Ultimately horse riding is a skill sport, and the skills involved do not seem to map onto either sex preferentially. Strength can be helpful but not beyond a certain point which is still in female range. But so are flexibility, balance and an ability to get inside a non-human animal's head. So cross-species empathy. Thing like pelvis shape difference and limb length difference are negated... horses come in different shapes and sizes to suit. And you get a lot of "noise" because horse talent (and the money that buys it) and a huge amount of luck play a massive part too. There's no point segregating by sex when the playing field is so lumpy anyway.
larkim Jun 2021 9:16am, 23 Jun 2021 14,869 posts	Quote Pin larkim What stands out about equestrianism is that it very quietly gets along without making a fuss about its lack of gender issues. Maybe its heritage amongst the landed gentry adds to that. There's much progress needs to be made across other sports where the opportunity for sex / gender blind performance can and should be achieved (e.g. snooker, darts, lawn bowls, motorsport, shooting (?) etc), but I suppose there is a "positive discrimination" argument there at the moment if participation by one gender is low so the range of talent coming through is not yet representative of the inherent ability.
RooA Jun 2021 9:20am, 23 Jun 2021 1,205 posts	Quote Pin RooA Interestingly, to me anyway, male horses tend to dominate in Dressage at the top level. Horses are not very sexually dimorphic physically but mares do tend to have slightly longer backs to accommodate room for a potential foal. Dressage movements are made marginally more difficult by a long back so the skew at the top is towards geldings and stallions. Possibly the hormonal nature of mares plays a part too! Geldings particularly, but stallions too, are more... consistent, making training easier and less likely to have a bad day on competition day.
Bazoaxe Jun 2021 9:38am, 23 Jun 2021 20,108 posts	Quote Pin Bazoaxe There is no reason why women cannot beat men in sports where skill is the main differentiator. Darts and Snooker are two other examples (albeit non olympic sports). I guess the interesting aspect could be ultra distance running as it seems that for really long distances, the advantages men have may be lessened or not exist.