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Transgender Athletes

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larkim Jun 2021 2:11pm, 22 Jun 2021 14,858 posts	Quote Pin larkim Reposting this away from the supportive thread "Transgender exercise - Lets Fetch Everyone" as there was an emerging consensus that I'd unnecessarily diverted it. "The challenges to established thinking are back on the radar in the mainstream press with the selection of Lauren Hubbard for the Olympics (and with a great prospect of a medal being won). bbc.co.uk I remain conflicted about the right answer when framed in the context of "If Lauren was my sister, I would think it was fair. If one of Lauren's competitors was my sister, would I think it was fair?"" I then also posted (and others commented too, though I won't repost their thoughts as that's for them to do!) "Worth listening to the Science of Sport podcast [which is here play.acast.com ] I linked a couple of pages back. Caveat - I don't know if Ross Tucker is actually factually correct in his assertions on that, but I got the impression he was pretty happy to follow whatever "science" says in respect of some of the post-puberty physical adaptations that a body will go through as a male which are very, very tough to overcome through any hormonal treatment to level the playing field. Lauren will certainly be less strong than she would have been without transitioning, but the podcast / Ross Tucker seemed to be suggesting pretty strongly that that reduction is insufficient to overcome the acquired physicality that passing through puberty as a male will have given to her. I want her to be able to compete because I think it is immoral to exclude people from sport because of who they are. But I'm not convinced she can compete fairly either. So I've not reconciled those two positions for myself, even though I tend towards favouring the former."
ThorntonRunner Jun 2021 2:22pm, 22 Jun 2021 5,009 posts	Quote Pin ThorntonRunner I'm going to repeat my plea from page 1 (that sadly wasn't always respected): A plea: This is a contentious issue. Please, if you feel the need to criticise what someone else has said, remember that this is FetchEveryone. We respect each other. Also remember that it is more difficult to interpret the spirit and nuances of what people write in a thread post, compared to when we talk in person. Give people the benefit of any doubt.
The Great Raemondo Jun 2021 2:28pm, 22 Jun 2021 7,863 posts	Quote Pin The Great Raemondo I'll re-post my comment from t'other thread as well, in the spirit of keeping the debate in here so the unadulterated support can stay in there: I think the Michael Phelps example is really relevant here - he is a physiological freak with a very real advantage over his opponents because he produces less lactic acid - nobody has ever called for him to take medication to bring him back in line with the majority, and it's just considered bad luck for his opponents that they live in an era where he's their competition. After all, the fact that Laurel is the first trans athlete to qualify in over 20 years that these rules have been applied shows that prophets of doom warning that this is the beginning of the end for cis women in sport are raising false flags. Sometimes an exceptional individual comes along and blows everyone else out of the water, and the world has been fine with it when those individuals are men, particularly white ones, but not so much with a Simon Biles, Caster Semenya or Laurel Hubbard...
The_Saint Jun 2021 3:15pm, 22 Jun 2021 6,850 posts	Quote Pin The_Saint The problem with the Phelps example and the Usain Bolt example usually given is that the categories in which they competed are not defined by lactic acid or height.
The Great Raemondo Jun 2021 3:18pm, 22 Jun 2021 7,865 posts	Quote Pin The Great Raemondo I know - and it's not like those characteristics are super relevant to performance in both fields, either. Oh, wait.
larkim Jun 2021 3:27pm, 22 Jun 2021 14,862 posts	Quote Pin larkim Sport is inherently unfair, and it does inherently tend towards favouring certain genetic traits which differ between sports. I'll never be a world class basketball player as there's no way on earth I could ever have grown past 5ft8, for example. It is that categorisation though that is the issue. I'll listen again to that podcast as my recollection is that Tucker addressed that point quite eloquently. And as someone who listened to it with a predisposition towards having no issues with MtF athletes competing in female classification events, it surprised me that I found myself persuaded by his comments.
SPR Jun 2021 3:35pm, 22 Jun 2021 34,544 posts	Quote Pin SPR Yes, the point is if you want to treat biological male advantage as 'talent', then the 2016 Olympic 100m world champion is Usain Bolt, not Usain Bolt and Elaine Thompson.
MsG Jun 2021 3:55pm, 22 Jun 2021 1,862 posts	Quote Pin MsG A recent thread by Emma Hilton (who's co-authored / published with Ross Tucker) examines LH's weight lifting performance in the context of male and female athlete performances. mobile.twitter.com Hopefully that loads the thread. Of particular note, is the chart I've reproduced below showing LH lifts in comparison to male and female. LH is a huge outlier. Personall, I think that this, in conjunction with Ross Tucker's work demonstrates that LH competing in the women's category is unfair.
SPR Jun 2021 4:39pm, 22 Jun 2021 34,548 posts	Quote Pin SPR The graph above is interesting. I've listened to the Tucker podcast and agree with all that he said pretty much. Given sport is split into male and female categories due to men having an advantage (which is not the same as saying all men are faster/ stronger, etc than all women), MtF should be allowed to compete in the female category if that advantage can be removed. Tucker suggests from research the advantage remains especially in strength sports In Laurel's case (from the little I've read), she seems to have become world class after transitioning which would suggest that some advantage remains.
MsG Jun 2021 4:50pm, 22 Jun 2021 1,863 posts	Quote Pin MsG Ross has an article in the Times (share token) which summarises the retained advantages by trans women. thetimes.co.uk I felt this paragraph described the issue well: "The upshot of the scientific picture is that the three key imperatives for any sport — fairness, safety and inclusion — cannot be balanced or achieved simultaneously. Based on the available scientific evidence, inclusion will occur at the expense of fairness and possibly safety. Put differently, fairness cannot be guaranteed to biological females by the current inclusion policies." My personal view is that fairness and safety for biological females should take priority until a solution could be found to address to these points for inclusion.