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Transgender Athletes

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The_Saint Aug 2023 3:27pm, 18 Aug 2023 7,052 posts	Quote Pin The_Saint Bugger that link didn't render - was that my male brain's fault or the female one's? researchgate.net
DocM Aug 2023 2:10pm, 20 Aug 2023 48,073 posts	Quote Pin DocM Thanks jda an article well worth reading
jda Aug 2023 2:16pm, 20 Aug 2023 15,343 posts	Quote Pin jda The ECF (English chess federation) has come out strongly against FIDE’s stance. I think I’m probably on FIDE’s side, if I have to have an opinion. If women is going to be a protected class, it needs to be defined in a way that’s meaningful and appropriate to the vast majority of women and if a few feel unfairly excluded, I’m afraid that’s just the inevitable consequence of there being no possible solution that accommodates diametrically opposing views.
larkim Sep 2023 3:37pm, 21 Sep 2023 22,046 posts	Quote Pin larkim Maybe it's an unfortunate consequence of my twitter feed profile, but over the last 2 weeks I've seen a lot of stuff directed at parkrun and its gender policies. In a spirit of being open to being persuaded either way, my "gut feel" is that as parkrun is registered voluntarily by individuals with no checking, and as parkrun tries to be everything to everyone simultaneously, their continued stance to explicitly allow individuals to register with a gender of their choice (or "prefer not to say" or "another gender identity") whilst simultaneously publishing results with positions listed by gender (with placings within gender) feels the least bad solution. However, the challenge of course is that women's published results are being disadvantaged because of individuals choosing female because that aligns with their self identification (or with the stage of life they are at with any intervention in terms of physical surgery, medical therapy etc etc) where that doesn't align with chromosomal sex. And I can absolutely see the validity in strong advocacy that this is detrimental to women only. I'm interested in a safe exchange of views about this where pros and cons can be put civilly and honestly, and obviously Twitter isn't the place for that; is here suitable?
DocM Sep 2023 3:44pm, 21 Sep 2023 48,220 posts	Quote Pin DocM your identity on parkrun is totally unregulated, you can put any name, any gender, and any age, so one could argue taking any of the results too seriously is pointless. You can of course also cheat by starting ahead of the start or taking a short cut. And I suspect such instances might well exceed the number of people who gain an advantage by virtue of their gender identification, where they are probably more likely to opt for prefer not to say. Just my opinion and may be entirely different to everyone elses
jda Sep 2023 3:55pm, 21 Sep 2023 15,474 posts	Quote Pin jda Since parkrun is fundamentally a free minimally-regulated social activity in which the genders are mixed, the oddity is that they keep gender records at all rather than that they allow self-id. There are no rules on shoes, or PEDs (are there?). If there was a conflict between some women arguing that the records are invalid/unfair and parkrun's self-id policy, I'd say just bin the keeping of records (including "open"). There are plenty of venues for properly regulated competitive athletics where the argument can (and must?) play out more meaningfully.
DocM Sep 2023 4:14pm, 21 Sep 2023 48,221 posts	Quote Pin DocM wouldnt it be so sad if one of the few places that transgender/non binary people can have a timed run without being asked questions was taken away from them?
larkim Sep 2023 5:00pm, 21 Sep 2023 22,048 posts	Quote Pin larkim I think I agree with both opinions above; however I've had my fingers burned in the past by thinking I had clarity of thought on an issue and then finding myself persuaded by others. I've been "won over" by the arguments about competitive sport classification by people like Mara Yamauchi, but now she's turned her sights on parkrun I'm finding I'm in disagreement on this. Just wanted to sense check things a little. I sense still that there's a fundamental belief by campaigners like MY that they view NB and trans individuals as "stealing" female opportunities as their prime motivation for the identification, and my instinct tells me that whilst I'm sure there are some "bad eggs" around the issue for whom that may be true, the vast majority of individuals are simply trying to make sense of the world for themselves, and that's something I think ultimately we all have a right to. (And rights have limits of course).
DocM Sep 2023 5:09pm, 21 Sep 2023 48,223 posts	Quote Pin DocM Larkim I agree it is helpful to be able to clarify your own views in a safe space. The rot sets in when we are not willing or able to hear the views of others and ultimately change our view point if appropriate. Personally, I think if you want to cheat there are much easier ways than changing your gender. And I also think the numbers involved in the issue are very very small but the media makes it to be a big problem we should all be worried about. If my non binary child joins in at parkrun I will be delighted they are doing some exercise in social setting and not having to be forced to the margins of society. They certainly wont be there for the purpose of trying to ruin someone elses day, or because they want to set some kind of record.
GetOutTheDoor Sep 2023 5:39pm, 21 Sep 2023 382 posts	Quote Pin GetOutTheDoor As a sometimes parkrunner (female) I would love to have non-binary/trans friends participate. Hopefully the ethos of it being a run rather than a race can be extrapolated into self identification of gender having no inadvertant effects on other runners. However I'm approaching this from a position of never having any risk of setting a course record. Surely such a social mass participation event should be open to all without needing tight definitions?