So who won the tour from 1999 to 2005

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SPR Feb 2022 12:04pm, 17 Feb 2022 36,290 posts	0 SPR A 15 year old is not doping on their own. With the appropriate adults involved they can't dope. Simple. I don't care how intentional she was. She is still a child. The point about her being a child isn't that it won't be intentional, it's that they are less likely to have the tools to make the CORRECT intentional decision. Of course nothing magical happens on your 18th birthday but there has to be an cut off. I'd have sympathy for an 18 year old as well. It's unlikely something like this is suddenly happened at 15 anyway. Even as an adult once embroiled in something, it can be hard to break away if you want to.
Bazoaxe Feb 2022 12:25pm, 17 Feb 2022 22,058 posts	0 Bazoaxe LOL, not at all ptb. There is organised state doping in Russia, it's unarguable. My only query with regards to this young lady is whether she is part of that or not (despite everything, I do think it is unlikely that every single Russian athlete is a doper). A more plausible scenario in her case is that it is parents / local coaches simply by dint of her age. The fact that she spoke for herself about the "reason" for her positive test really surprised me and as I say leaves only two doors open; either she is knowingly cheating and she is knowingly complicit in the attempt to cover it up, or she is utterly innocent. The latter I find less likely as a scenario, I must admit. larkim, in my view she is a doper and part of the organised Russian state doping. I agree a lot of this will have been though coaches telling her its ok, but that doesn't make her innocent despite her young age. The bit that I puzzle over is how doping really helps with ice skating as its more an ability type of thing but witihin which fitness and strength will help - but not as much as a runner or weightlifter for example
The Mussile Feb 2022 12:29pm, 17 Feb 2022 909 posts	0 The Mussile I'm fully in agreement with SPR here and I say that as someone who generally detests cheats and dopers and would go far harsher on bans and wish the whole conversation would change with the media championing sports that find and oust dopers rather than tarring them.
larkim Feb 2022 12:53pm, 17 Feb 2022 17,088 posts	0 larkim Noted she declared hypoxen and L-Carnitine on her sample form, so the fact that those were found in her sample shouldn't really be a surprise to Tygart. And worth noting too that the adverse finding was made by RUSADA which, to a small degree, undermines some of the sentiment about Russia's state operated programme if they were able to generate an AAF against the "Usain Bolt" of female Russian figure skating. (Though they did try to suppress it, also!) I do get what everyone's saying about the age thing and I'm not trying to portray her as some evil child doper, just trying to avoid her getting too much of a free pass. Anyone that has influenced her to dope is guilty of child abuse, pure and simple. It's vanishingly unlikely that she's woken up as a 14yo and said to her parents / coaches "please help me to dope because it will make me better at skating", but getting the tone right with how much blame to ascribe to her vs others is important. I'm one of those who is happy to see former dopers rehabilitated as I do believe people can make bad decisions and then genuinely regret them, and that applies with bells on to a 15yo who ends up with a sanction. She is stunningly graceful to watch and I suppose I'm more enraged having seen her skate before knowing about the doping issue as she is / was clearly someone taking her discipline to new levels.
larkim Feb 2022 2:12pm, 17 Feb 2022 17,095 posts	0 larkim Well, at least as far as individual medals are concerned there won't be any problems giving them out today. It was a ludicrous position to be in.
rf_fozzy Feb 2022 4:28pm, 17 Feb 2022 16,680 posts	0 rf_fozzy "The bit that I puzzle over is how doping really helps with ice skating as its more an ability type of thing but witihin which fitness and strength will help - but not as much as a runner or weightlifter for example" This is fundamentally wrong. And a complete misunderstanding of modern athletes. What you mean to say is that the conferred benefits of doping in ice skating may not be as intuitive as they are in some other sports. The implication is that ice skaters aren't athletes in the same way runners are. Which I think many ice skaters might disagree with you on.
Bazoaxe Feb 2022 5:50pm, 17 Feb 2022 22,059 posts	0 Bazoaxe That’s not the implication at all fozzy. It’s your reading of what I said. I am questioning what the benefits are for an ice skater of doping. Yes there may be some benefit but it must be marginal compared to others. I could equally have said the same for a high jumper.
Velociraptor Feb 2022 6:06pm, 17 Feb 2022 56,443 posts	0 Velociraptor Ice skating, even the elegant dance disciplines, is a highly physical sport and performers will benefit from taking banned substances to improve strength and ability to sustain a high training load. Doping also extends into improving pain tolerance, concentration, alertness and precision and, of course, weight management. All of these things are relevant in sports that aren't purely about speed and strength.
SPR Feb 2022 6:08pm, 17 Feb 2022 36,294 posts	0 SPR You can't be serious about high jump?! Even with ice skating, you mean figure skating and Fozzy is right. If being a better athlete can make you better at a sport then doping will help. In any case most doping isn't a magic pill that just makes you better instantly. Most doping allows you to recover quicker so you can train more and therefore be better. That will help with pretty much any sport.
Bazoaxe Feb 2022 7:51pm, 17 Feb 2022 22,061 posts	0 Bazoaxe I must be making my point badly. To be good at figure skating or high jump it’s the technique that is the key part. The physical element while important is not what makes them good.