Same mileage, different training benefits?

J2R

Aug 2017

11:28am, 25 Aug 2017

676 posts

0

J2R

This should, on paper, be a very simple question but I don't believe there is a clear answer. I'd be interested in hearing people's opinions (preferably backed up by some references to studies, etc.).

Let's say I plan to run 10 training miles over two days, at easy pace. What would be the different training effects on me of running them in the following 3 ways:

1. 5 miles one day, 5 miles the next.
2. 10 miles one day, rest day the next.
3. 5 miles in the morning and 5 miles in the evening one day, rest day the next.

One benefits from rest days, but one also benefits from consistency.

Dvorak

Aug 2017

11:49am, 25 Aug 2017

14,118 posts

0

Dvorak

I don't have any studies, nor any strong opinions. But since I am sitting about ...

On your current sixty miles a week, I doubt there would be much difference, and any difference would largely depend on what else you were doing. For example if the day before was a twenty mile run, I think 1. would be better. If day 3 was to be a twenty mile run, 3. would be better.

But that's more about recovery and readiness, than any training effect of the runs themselves.

HappyG(rrr)

Aug 2017

11:51am, 25 Aug 2017

27,252 posts

0

HappyG(rrr)

No references, sorry, but I'd say... not much.

In the P&D plan that I follow there are 10, 12, 14 and 15 mile "mid length runs" they call them, midweek. I often split them, for fitting into life convenience, into two commute runs. 5 + 5, 7 + 7.

I believe the purpose of that run (within a mid to high volume marathon training plan, that includes a variety of other sessions)
1. general total weekly volume, contributing to endurance and resilience adaptation
2. specific midweek fatigue and a supplement to the weekend long run.

I believe it is no less beneficial for 1. but slightly less beneficial for 2. But it's a compromise I'm happy to make.

Regarding rest days / times (which is the other part of your variations listed above) I think that either
I. a full rest day or
ii. an easy day

is beneficial between hard days e.g. after a long run, a tempo run etc.

However, the P&D plan considers 5 miles easy to be recovery , 5 miles + 5 miles easy to also be recovery!

This is probably dependent though on your "normal" mileage. e.g. if 10 miles is a long run for someone then different answer than if 10 miles is a relatively middling run. I do u to 70 miles a week, so 10 miles in a day is "normal".

Anyway, interested to see others', more informed, answers. :-)

G

HappyG(rrr)

Aug 2017

11:51am, 25 Aug 2017

27,253 posts

0

HappyG(rrr)

Oh, cross post with Dv. However, glad to see we've both said about the same thing!

J2R

Aug 2017

12:30pm, 25 Aug 2017

677 posts

0

J2R

Interesting feedback there. Dvorak, I don't actually run 60 miles per week - more like 30-40 on a regular basis. I think the training log which is automatically synced from Garmin Connect might be a little misleading as it will include cycle rides as well - don't know if you were looking at that. Good point about day before and day after.

HappyG, I have tended not to take many rest days in recent months (unless forced to by circumstances such as travel or excessive workload), and have instead done easy runs (typically 2.5 minutes slower than 5K pace). I was actually wondering about redistributing my load a little and taking rest days, though, which is one of the reasons for the question.

McGoohan

Aug 2017

2:25pm, 25 Aug 2017

30,640 posts

0

McGoohan

I don't have any wisdom to offer, but I've noticed several Fetchies do multiple runs per day and I've wondered why. I've never seen any training plan that recommends that behaviour though I'm guessing top-end athletes would be more likely to do it.

The one time I did a parkrun in the morning (quite flat out) and a race (7-miles) in the afternoon, I felt fairly crap.

Autumnleaves

Aug 2017

2:45pm, 25 Aug 2017

11,044 posts

0

Autumnleaves

I don't have any references either - but I have done multiple runs on one day - usually when I am doing a short easy run with Resolution Runners (my running group) and a plan suggests a longer one - sometimes I have only had a 10-15 minute break, sometimes it will be a few hours. I find it's a good way to do extra miles and overall I may run the second chunk at a faster average pace. I think it depends on your recovery - I find I recover quite well from shorter easy efforts - I have even raced a 5k in the afternoon and been close to PB pace after 4 slow miles first thing. You did ask about training benefit though and my guess is that breaking a very long run into chunks might negate at least part of its main purpose.

HappyG(rrr)

Aug 2017

3:09pm, 25 Aug 2017

27,255 posts

0

HappyG(rrr)

McGooh - many plans have double days. It's a way of increasing total mileage but with less of an injury risk / strain of doing a long run. Also, they are often split to one run as easy/recovery, the other one as pace work. I have occasionally even done triples, again, where one is a "quality" session, but the others are just plods.

J2R, I've just looked and you are M55, so I'd think one consideration for us all as we get older is to allow increasing amounts of recovery time. But I'd stick with what I said that two 5s in a day and a complete rest the next day is probably the least stressful on the body. Followed by 5 each day (as long as both easy), with the 10 + rest being the "hardest" on the body.

All depends what your goal is. If your goal is "better recovery" I'd go with 5 + 5 in a day and a complete rest day the next day. :-)

G

HappyG(rrr)

Aug 2017

3:10pm, 25 Aug 2017

27,256 posts

0

HappyG(rrr)

Oh, and again, I've said almost exactly same as AL. I should have read her wisdom first! :-)

G

J2R

Aug 2017

3:45pm, 25 Aug 2017

678 posts

0

J2R

HappyG, I'm inclined to agree with your ordering of the patterns in terms of how stressful on the body they are. I've always found easy runs in the morning and evening to be a very easily tolerated way of building mileage, and having a complete rest day the next day feels positively indulgent. I haven't seen this pattern advocated much in training plans, though, and I've never seen any studies actually supporting my gut feeling about it. (Doubles are a mainstay of advanced running plans but without the rest day the next day, just with an easy day instead).

I am indeed getting old and recover less well than I might have done when younger. Curiously, though, I find that if I do a lot of mileage but in an easily absorbed way, it makes me feel more resilient and less fragile. I never do back to back hard sessions, which is important, I think.

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J2R Aug 2017 11:28am, 25 Aug 2017 676 posts	0 J2R This should, on paper, be a very simple question but I don't believe there is a clear answer. I'd be interested in hearing people's opinions (preferably backed up by some references to studies, etc.). Let's say I plan to run 10 training miles over two days, at easy pace. What would be the different training effects on me of running them in the following 3 ways: 1. 5 miles one day, 5 miles the next. 2. 10 miles one day, rest day the next. 3. 5 miles in the morning and 5 miles in the evening one day, rest day the next. One benefits from rest days, but one also benefits from consistency.
Dvorak Aug 2017 11:49am, 25 Aug 2017 14,118 posts	0 Dvorak I don't have any studies, nor any strong opinions. But since I am sitting about ... On your current sixty miles a week, I doubt there would be much difference, and any difference would largely depend on what else you were doing. For example if the day before was a twenty mile run, I think 1. would be better. If day 3 was to be a twenty mile run, 3. would be better. But that's more about recovery and readiness, than any training effect of the runs themselves.
HappyG(rrr) Aug 2017 11:51am, 25 Aug 2017 27,252 posts	0 HappyG(rrr) No references, sorry, but I'd say... not much. In the P&D plan that I follow there are 10, 12, 14 and 15 mile "mid length runs" they call them, midweek. I often split them, for fitting into life convenience, into two commute runs. 5 + 5, 7 + 7. I believe the purpose of that run (within a mid to high volume marathon training plan, that includes a variety of other sessions) 1. general total weekly volume, contributing to endurance and resilience adaptation 2. specific midweek fatigue and a supplement to the weekend long run. I believe it is no less beneficial for 1. but slightly less beneficial for 2. But it's a compromise I'm happy to make. Regarding rest days / times (which is the other part of your variations listed above) I think that either I. a full rest day or ii. an easy day is beneficial between hard days e.g. after a long run, a tempo run etc. However, the P&D plan considers 5 miles easy to be recovery , 5 miles + 5 miles easy to also be recovery! This is probably dependent though on your "normal" mileage. e.g. if 10 miles is a long run for someone then different answer than if 10 miles is a relatively middling run. I do u to 70 miles a week, so 10 miles in a day is "normal". Anyway, interested to see others', more informed, answers. G
HappyG(rrr) Aug 2017 11:51am, 25 Aug 2017 27,253 posts	0 HappyG(rrr) Oh, cross post with Dv. However, glad to see we've both said about the same thing!
J2R Aug 2017 12:30pm, 25 Aug 2017 677 posts	0 J2R Interesting feedback there. Dvorak, I don't actually run 60 miles per week - more like 30-40 on a regular basis. I think the training log which is automatically synced from Garmin Connect might be a little misleading as it will include cycle rides as well - don't know if you were looking at that. Good point about day before and day after. HappyG, I have tended not to take many rest days in recent months (unless forced to by circumstances such as travel or excessive workload), and have instead done easy runs (typically 2.5 minutes slower than 5K pace). I was actually wondering about redistributing my load a little and taking rest days, though, which is one of the reasons for the question.
McGoohan Aug 2017 2:25pm, 25 Aug 2017 30,640 posts	0 McGoohan I don't have any wisdom to offer, but I've noticed several Fetchies do multiple runs per day and I've wondered why. I've never seen any training plan that recommends that behaviour though I'm guessing top-end athletes would be more likely to do it. The one time I did a parkrun in the morning (quite flat out) and a race (7-miles) in the afternoon, I felt fairly crap.
Autumnleaves Aug 2017 2:45pm, 25 Aug 2017 11,044 posts	0 Autumnleaves I don't have any references either - but I have done multiple runs on one day - usually when I am doing a short easy run with Resolution Runners (my running group) and a plan suggests a longer one - sometimes I have only had a 10-15 minute break, sometimes it will be a few hours. I find it's a good way to do extra miles and overall I may run the second chunk at a faster average pace. I think it depends on your recovery - I find I recover quite well from shorter easy efforts - I have even raced a 5k in the afternoon and been close to PB pace after 4 slow miles first thing. You did ask about training benefit though and my guess is that breaking a very long run into chunks might negate at least part of its main purpose.
HappyG(rrr) Aug 2017 3:09pm, 25 Aug 2017 27,255 posts	0 HappyG(rrr) McGooh - many plans have double days. It's a way of increasing total mileage but with less of an injury risk / strain of doing a long run. Also, they are often split to one run as easy/recovery, the other one as pace work. I have occasionally even done triples, again, where one is a "quality" session, but the others are just plods. J2R, I've just looked and you are M55, so I'd think one consideration for us all as we get older is to allow increasing amounts of recovery time. But I'd stick with what I said that two 5s in a day and a complete rest the next day is probably the least stressful on the body. Followed by 5 each day (as long as both easy), with the 10 + rest being the "hardest" on the body. All depends what your goal is. If your goal is "better recovery" I'd go with 5 + 5 in a day and a complete rest day the next day. G
HappyG(rrr) Aug 2017 3:10pm, 25 Aug 2017 27,256 posts	0 HappyG(rrr) Oh, and again, I've said almost exactly same as AL. I should have read her wisdom first! G
J2R Aug 2017 3:45pm, 25 Aug 2017 678 posts	0 J2R HappyG, I'm inclined to agree with your ordering of the patterns in terms of how stressful on the body they are. I've always found easy runs in the morning and evening to be a very easily tolerated way of building mileage, and having a complete rest day the next day feels positively indulgent. I haven't seen this pattern advocated much in training plans, though, and I've never seen any studies actually supporting my gut feeling about it. (Doubles are a mainstay of advanced running plans but without the rest day the next day, just with an easy day instead). I am indeed getting old and recover less well than I might have done when younger. Curiously, though, I find that if I do a lot of mileage but in an easily absorbed way, it makes me feel more resilient and less fragile. I never do back to back hard sessions, which is important, I think.