Polarized training

90 watchers
May 2021
2:22pm, 25 May 2021
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GlennR
I found that post incredibly helpful Canute. Thank you.
Jun 2021
11:30am, 10 Jun 2021
17,790 posts
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Chrisull
Canute - have you seen V'raps blog (today) on "Old people running very fast"? M65 17.11 5k on the road taking Ed Whitlock's 17.23 record...

It would seem to be this guy here scottishdistancerunninghistory.scot Have you come across him before and if so how does his training compare to Ed Whitlock/Gene Dykes?
Jun 2021
2:54pm, 13 Jun 2021
2,417 posts
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Canute
Chrisull, thanks for the link. I had not previously been aware of him. I note that prior to the World Masters Championships in 2018 his weekly schedule was one long run; 2 speed sessions; other days were steady running. Around 50 miles a week. It would be interesting to know how fast he ran during the steady running.

It seems clear that he made great advances after he increased the intensity of his training, similarly to Greg Dykes.
Sep 2021
11:20am, 22 Sep 2021
2,444 posts
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Canute
A bit more about Alastair Walker.

In some comments reported in a local newspaper (the News and Star) after his world record breaking 5K run at age 65 in Carlisle in June this year, he said:

“I hadn’t run since I was 37 until 2019. I used to run for Scotland, and I won the World Championship in 2019. I think the 20 years of rest I had have saved my legs, and they are still quite spritely.”

I am reminded of Yoshihisa Hosaka described in my post on the previous page of this thread. After a long rest following an elite level surfing career in young adult life, Hosaka started serious running in his early 60’s. He ran 20 miles a day, every day, with more than 10K at or faster than marathon pace. At age 60 he took nearly two minutes of the world M60+ record with a time of 2:36:30. Hosaka was still running marathons for a few years after that (e.g. he was the 65-69 age group winner in a time of 2:52:13 at the Gold Coast marathon a few years later) but never set another world record. He subsequently appears to have dropped below the horizon. In contrast, when Ed Whitlock returned to serious running in late middle age, he settled on a programme of high volume low intensity training interspersed with fairly frequent high intensity 5K and 10K races. He continued to set world age group records until prostate cancer caught up with him in his mid-eighties.

These are mere anecdotes. Nonetheless, I will be very interested to see how things unfold for Alastair Walker in the next few years.
Sep 2021
11:27am, 22 Sep 2021
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Canute
Incidentally, the year 2019 reported in the News and Star was wrong. Alastair started serious running again at age around 59 in 2015 after a 22 year lay-off, and appears to have been training fairly hard for about 6 years sicnce then.
Oct 2021
9:40am, 27 Oct 2021
353 posts
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Bowman
*I will start running even slower, and faster*
Ive read loads in this thread now..
But still.. How slow? I mean i might do a marathon with 5:20-5:30 pace on the km now.

I do 10k on track @40 min ish.

Should i really be at 7ish min per km. That is walking..
I find that hard to grasp how to get a proper gat/stride and what not.
Sorry if it already in the thread, but miles/min doesn't compute in my head.

whats your "slow pace"?
jda
Oct 2021
10:23am, 27 Oct 2021
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jda
I do 10k around 3:45/km when fit, marathon about 4:00, steady pace around 5:00 or slower on undulating terrain. A key part of my training has been learning to run properly at a gentle pace. I have used a metronome or music to keep my cadence high.

About one min per km slower than threshold is probable a reasonable ballpark to aim at. I wouldn’t use your marathon pace as a guide unless you have done a good marathon, a lot of people really drop off at such a long event. The key is that the running is not too stressful which you can monitor via pulse and feeling.
Oct 2021
10:29am, 27 Oct 2021
354 posts
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Bowman
Ok jda, ill keep that in mind! Cheers.
Well a bit over 6min pace might be a good start for my really slow pace.
Sound good, then my little son can tag a long a little more :)
Oct 2021
10:43am, 27 Oct 2021
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Kieren
The slowness is based on your ability to recover. So a runner like me, that runs less than 7 hours a week has lot of time to recover. Someone doing more volume needs to balance that out.

Both volume and intensity are needed to create training stress for adaption. A build up to easier volume has less injury risk that hard sessions.

Stephen Seider (polarized training) and his daughter put up a recent video on Molly Seidel (US Olympic marathoner). They talk about how she changed to be less polarized because she was getting injured. She can tolerate high volumes better than intensity. So while not strictly the 80:20 model of the thread, the change in focus gives some context I think.

https://youtu.be/ei5-diaGXp0
Oct 2021
10:46am, 27 Oct 2021
2,114 posts
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SailorSteve
Hi Bowman - I might be a bit off-message here, as I don’t use any stats in my training runs, but rather than ‘slow’ as a pace I think in terms of the effort level.

So for me, my slowest runs translate to feeling really ‘easy’ or like I could ‘run forever’ on whatever terrain and whatever weather I find myself in. I obviously couldn’t ‘run forever’ but if I were to try, this is the way I would run: as comfortable as I can feel (so my form doesn’t go completely to pot) whilst running with no sense of ‘pushing’ whatsoever.

About This Thread

Maintained by Canute
Polarised training is a form of training that places emphasis on the two extremes of intensity. There is a large amount of low intensity training (comfortably below lactate threshold) and an appreciable minority of high intensity training (above LT).

Polarised training does also include some training near lactate threshold, but the amount of threshold training is modest, in contrast to the relatively high proportion of threshold running that is popular among some recreational runners.

Polarised training is not new. It has been used for many years by many elites and some recreational runners. However, it has attracted great interest in recent years for two reasons.

First, detailed reviews of the training of many elite endurance athletes confirms that they employ a polarised approach (typically 80% low intensity, 10% threshold and 10% high intensity. )

Secondly, several scientific studies have demonstrated that for well trained athletes who have reached a plateau of performance, polarised training produces greater gains in fitness and performance, than other forms of training such as threshold training on the one hand, or high volume, low intensity training on the other.

Much of the this evidence was reviewed by Stephen Seiler in a lecture delivered in Paris in 2013 .
vimeo.com

In case you cannot access that lecture by Seiler in 2013, here is a link to his more recent TED talk.

ted.com
This has less technical detail than his 2013 talk, but is nonetheless a very good introduction to the topic. It should be noted that from the historical perspective, Seiler shows a US bias.

Here is another useful video by Stephen Seiler in which he discusses the question of the optimum intensity and duration of low intensity sessions. Although the answer ‘depends on circumstances’ he proposes that a low intensity session should be long enough to reach the point where there are detectable indications of rising stress (either the beginning of upwards drift of HR or increased in perceived effort). If longer than this, there is increasing risk of damaging effects. A session shorter than this might not be enough to produce enough stress to achieve a useful training effect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GXc474Hu5U


The coach who probably deserves the greatest credit for emphasis on the value of low intensity training was Arthur Lydiard, who coached some of the great New Zealanders in the 1960's and Scandinavians in the 1970’s. One of his catch-phrases was 'train, don't strain'. However Lydiard never made it really clear what he meant by ‘quarter effort’. I have discussed Lydiard’s ideas on several occasions on my Wordpress blog. For example: canute1.wordpress.com

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