Fetch Orienteers
48 watchers
Jun 2021
4:45pm, 14 Jun 2021
14,732 posts
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rf_fozzy
Yeah, I get that Roo. I think it's the availability of the S class anyway that makes me question why the courses aren't the same length. (Btw the M21L is often too long when there's the availability of a M21E course). It's the dramatic differences in course length at orienteering that make me think something isn't right - for example, the W21L course is quite often the same length as the M21S. Is the "women must run shorter courses than the men because that's the way it's always been done" (XC argument) a "real" handicapping or is it just an anachronism based on how the sport developed and outdated attitudes to women (e.g. "10,000m/marathons etc are too far for women to race") My initial base thinking is that men and women are both capable (in general) of having the same rights and responsibilities and performances and so therefore we should be equal as far as possible. And then yes, the awarding of prizes should be done on a "category" basis. Deviations from equality should only be for genuine reasons only (note this applies in both directions). But I am persuadable to the idea that the distances are irrelevant as long as the EWT is the important planning factor (and that M/W courses are planned to the same EWT). But we are then down to the planning ratios (which aren't right! - they underestimate some age courses for example). |
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Jun 2021
4:49pm, 14 Jun 2021
14,733 posts
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rf_fozzy
And I'm not specifically "deciding what women want for them." I'm suggesting we start from the equal footing and then make adjustments rather than starting from an unequal footing, which the current descrepancy in EWT for M/W long corses certainly does. It might be then that it's ok. I'm not sure one way or the other at the moment. |
Jun 2021
4:52pm, 14 Jun 2021
8,523 posts
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Fragile Do Not Bend
I’d be interested to know if that’s the case Roo. I honestly don’t know as I’m primarily a road/trail runner who does the occasional light green course at an O event for a bit of variety. In my normal running circles, I’ve not noticed a tendency for women to prefer to run shorter distances. But the demographic in orienteering seems to be different, with a bigger proportion of 60+ runners than I come across in other types of running event.
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Jun 2021
5:12pm, 14 Jun 2021
1,169 posts
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RooA
I just think it is important to remember that there are real physiological differences at play. Obviously I do not believe there are any difference in navigational skill, or responsibility (not sure where that fits in?)but in my experience the running involved in orienteering and the way it involves more strength in a way than simple road running or even trail running for example *does* mean that over the same distance women are working a certain amount harder proportionate to their strength. Obviously talking in averages etc etc but there are valid reasons women's sports exist and I don't think it can all be dismissed as anachronistic. *some* will be the result of historical attitudes but much is rooted in physical sex difference. The quest for equality is nobel of course, but also we are not physically the same. Correct planning ratios if they aren't right but no need to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I think W21L could be one course up from M21S for sure, I always felt that. But I think to push it up to exactly the same as M21L would be to take it too far. It's complicated by orienteering being so multifaceted, with the navigational skill component, and skill in running over rough terrain etc involved too. But I think the type of rough running that has to be done often encompasses a muscle strength element that justifies a handicap based on sex as well as age. I was never super amazing but I was reasonable when I was doing W21L. I think a longer course would have pushed me onto the W21S, because it would have been just a bit too much really. As a fairly casual participant. The super serious and the super good maybe not but if a fairly casual, reasonable male can happily take part in the M21L and try his luck against the best in his category then the same should be true for the fairly casual, reasonable female and the W21L. And making the W21L the same as the M21L might cause that to not be the case. It's about working out what is appropriate handicap and what is rooted in historical attitudes. I don't think it is all just about attitudes. |
Jun 2021
5:52pm, 14 Jun 2021
1,557 posts
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Shortcut Cam
And then there is the BOF points ranking system...
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Jun 2021
5:56pm, 14 Jun 2021
1,173 posts
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RooA
I'm very much too out of the loop to be able to comment on that without more information.
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Jun 2021
6:57pm, 14 Jun 2021
14,735 posts
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rf_fozzy
I understand how the BOF ranking system works. I don't have enough information to be able to comment on whether or not it is a fair reflection of performance. It definitely seems to have "quirks" and flaws. |
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Jun 2021
6:57pm, 14 Jun 2021
14,736 posts
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rf_fozzy
(as does the CSC scoring system by the way...)
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Jun 2021
7:10pm, 17 Jun 2021
1,558 posts
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Shortcut Cam
This appeared on my club’s WhatsApp drive.google.com
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Jun 2021
7:11pm, 17 Jun 2021
1,559 posts
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Shortcut Cam
There is also a critique of the BOF points system online but unable to find that atm
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