Woof! Bark! And also Whiiiiiiiiiine.

Willow

Apr 2014

11:26pm, 13 Apr 2014

First-time poster!!

0

Willow

Sorry to butt in but seriously don't start spraying your dogs with water/using any other aversive for being unsure/aggressive around other dogs! 99% of aggression in dogs is rooted in fear, adding a bad experience from a punisher while they are already stressed because of another dog is just going to increase their fear and make things worse. Or, at best, your dog will become shut down/learned helpless but will still feel just as stressed on the inside. Spraying with water may seen quite benign to us but for some dogs it is really, really aversive and scary - and it is the dog that decides what is scary, not anyone else.

I suggest you seek out help from a member of the APBC for aggression issues. Also once a dog has gone "over-threshold" it is best to practice complete avoidance of other dogs for at least 48 hours (may even be longer) to allow stress hormones to leave the system, else they just ramp up and up and up. And do some research on Behaviour Adjustment Training while waiting for your appointment with the expert.

Dogs go through another fear period during adolesence and seemingly bolshy behaviour could be attributed to this.

Again sorry to butt in as I only lurk - but cannot stand to see normalisation of aversives in dog training. There is almost always a better way.

lazydaisy

Apr 2014

7:09am, 14 Apr 2014

7,446 posts

0

lazydaisy

Willow there's no such thing as "butting in" if you have advice to give! Are you a pet behaviour counsellor? It sounds like you might be, in which case I for one would be interested to know more :-)

Sharkie

Apr 2014

8:21am, 14 Apr 2014

5,310 posts

0

Sharkie

As lazydaisy points out above there's no such thing as 'butting in' on this sort of thread. I've researched threshold training - although out in the real world it's not always possible to put it into practice. there are only so many parked cars and side streets available!

One of the behaviousists I know ( not Nat) suggested BAT for Jess - but she pointed out there are several schools of thought on the best way to treat aggression/anxiety/fear issues. All of the advised ones - I hasten to add - based on non aversive methods.

I didn't say so here but I wouldn't and don't use a water spray with Jess. When she was a small and very bitey puppy, and I knew a lot less than I do now, we had a brief go with the water pistol. I WOULDN'T and don't do it now.

I have to point out though - trust Jess - she LIKED it. Game!

Dave A

Apr 2014

1:40pm, 14 Apr 2014

20,597 posts

0

Dave A

I don't think that squirters are seen as a punishment in all cases. A colleague of mine has a squirted collar for his spaniel x beagle. He uses it to get the dogs attention when he runs off. Not that we use one, but it can depend on how it's used.

Helegant

Apr 2014

5:34pm, 14 Apr 2014

1,953 posts

0

Helegant

Willow, I'd like to know more. As you may have read, my daughter has a rescue dog that has fear issues and I'd like to understand what helps and what doesn't.

D2

Apr 2014

5:53pm, 14 Apr 2014

5,120 posts

0

D2

I would like to hear more too.

Willow

Apr 2014

1:26am, 15 Apr 2014

2 posts

0

Willow

I'm not a behaviour counsellor, not yet anyway. I'm a dog trainer and not yet fully qualified so although I possibly know more than average I'm not an out and out expert. So, you know, ignore me at will.

I just get worried when people, with the best of intentions, start down the line of suppressing a behaviour through punishment without tackling the underlying emotional response. I like to start from a place where in order to change the behaviour you change the motivation - punishing a dog for doing something doesn't give the dog any other options - i.e. it might figure out what not to do (by no means guarenteed anyway) but without teaching him an alternatinve behaviour he's a bit stuck. Much better to think what you want the dog to do instead then work out how to motivate them to do it. It is a paradigm shift worth making.

Punishment in dog training almost never works, and I'd say never works without consequences. And punishing a fearful dog is always a bad idea. I don't want to offer advice to those of you with fearful/aggressive dogs via the internet as each case is individual and would need to be assessed in person by a properly qualified individual - often a single appointment and a behaviour plan can make a huge difference (if carefully followed of course). But here is a link to the BAT website empoweredanimals.com

And DaveA - I've said it once already, but it is worth repeating - it is the dog that decides what is a punisher, not the human, not "how it is used"; if the dog is scared then it has been punished. Maybe your colleague's dog didn't find the squirt collar punishing, maybe it did. If it didn't the collar could be used as a recall cue (although, why not a whistle if you aren't relying on a punishing/aversive effect?). And an aversive is, in my view, never necessary and generally just lead to further behaviour problems and a weakening of the relationship with the owner.

What I find concerning is that a lot of things that are taken as fairly normal ways of treating a dog/dealing with behaviour issues can actually be really stressful for the dog - shouting, "ah-ah"s or "a firm no", headcollars, dragging a dog into situations it finds scary/generally dragging it around, water sprays, "training discs", pet correctors, lead yanking/pulling etc etc etc. It depends entirely on the dog - some dogs might be oblivious to it all, others are worried by the gentlist telling off.

Sharkie - yes, avoiding going over threshold can be really hard in the real world as you say. However I do think it is worth practicing total avoidance for 48 hours after an incident nevertheless, even if that means limited walks/no walks. Continually ramping up stress levels will do a dog more harm in the long run than a couple of days without a proper walk every now and then after a bad incident.

I'm ranting, I can only apologise but I do feel quite strongly about this. You all seem like nice people with your dogs' best interests at heart so I don't want to sound like I'm "telling you off" or anything - I just wanted to drop in and offer something to think on.

BaronessBL

Apr 2014

8:30am, 15 Apr 2014

3,729 posts

0

BaronessBL

How do you deal with a dog who is stir crazy for not having had a walk for 48 hours. I know in an ideal world of course people who didn't have a garden the size of a field wouldnt keep dogs but we don't live in an ideal world and many dog owner have modest/no gardens or gardens that might be ideal for a pug but not for an energetic dog that needs a lot of exercise.

When I say stir crazy I mean really and obviously stressed, constantly vocal, ripping anything it can get hold of to shreds (including the dogs bed - the actual bed not just blankets), because it is expecting a walk at a certain time as part of its routine and is anxious when it doesn't get it. If the reason for not going for a walk is to avoid meeting other dogs if you live in a built up area close to the most popular dogwalking footpath for that estate/area it's very difficult to guarantee that if you even walk to the end of the road you won't see another dog.

So having not done the walk for 48 hours once and the owner has had that level of destruction, barking, bitingetc too. What then, and how do you discourage that behaviour while it is happening during that 48 hour period? And when the dog does go out its so excited at going for a walk again its leaping about, pulling, still charging at other dogs.

I can understand how the not walking for 48 hours thing might be OK if it is for a dog that has a generally calm demeanour and where both owners don't work full time so rely on a dog walking lady to come in and walk the dog and I appreciate you can't give general advice that covers every single dog and maybe there are other underlying issues in the story I relate above that I don't know - but hearing a story like that would worry me about not walking a dog for 48 hours (especially on a working days) more than the fact that I might have to yank her lead/squirt her with water/raise my voice with 'no' or do something else if I see another dog when walking mine as my dog is excitable/energetic and probably what you might call highly strung

Sharkie

Apr 2014

8:49am, 15 Apr 2014

5,311 posts

0

Sharkie

I completely support you Baroness, and know where you are coming from.

I'm not saying Willlow is wrong, and BAT is widely accepted by many trainers/behaviourists and had already read a lengthy tome on threshold work. There is lotsof literature and advice about. I was directed to Willow's link by the 'other' animal behaviourist I know, but as she pointed out - there are several 'kind' ways of working through problems with our dogs.

One thing I'd suggest - if you don't use something similar already - is a front fastening harness. Easy walk ours is callled. We alternate several different sorts of leads and harnesses with Jess - the only one she really disliked was the Gentle Leader so we gave up with that (however Nat advises that one and it works for many dogs)

Incidentally Nat is has a PHD in animal behaviour as well as many, many years practical experience. Everything she does is based on understanding the DOG. And of course she is anti aversives. I'm sure LazyD will give an equally glowing - but DIFFERENT - appraisal of Lisa and co's methods.

BaronessBL

Apr 2014

9:16am, 15 Apr 2014

3,731 posts

0

BaronessBL

Morning Sharkie!
Since we have had Wanda I have read much on training too! The story I relate above isn't Wanda but it's a there but for the grace of God go I type situation and I personally think Wanda would react badly to not going for a walk twice a day even for a 24/48 hour period. In fact when she had suspected kennel cough we were advised not to take her out but we did and kept her on the lead, allowed no contact with other dogs and were careful about where she 'sniffed.' the vet had told us that lots of dogs being walked in a particular place were all coming in with kennel cough so some owners level of responsibility was probably different and we avoided that area for a couple of weeks.
Again - it's difficult to judge - for Willow or anyone - when you only hear a story second hand because you can't always ask follow up questions that the next person would ask and if the story is told to you in a chance meeting as you are both trying to walk your dogs before getting on with the working day you don't hear as much of it as you might in a one to one training session, so what I say above is my understanding only.

We have a variety of harnesses for Wanda too! At the moment - because I am a) horrendously busy at work (which is what I should be doing now having started early specially and just been on this site all morning :-o) and b) not going to be on Fetch as much as normal for the rest of the week I'm not going to go into detail about what I do/don't use on Wanda as I can't get into a discussion about it now especially if all the WBW-ers start chipping in too and don't want to miss a response about her to which I might not be able to respond to for a week or so. Don't think I am being rude or ignoring people's comments advice - I'm (attempting to) only look at websites that I am meant to for work and ignoring the 'fun' ones! :-o

Wish me luck

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Willow Apr 2014 11:26pm, 13 Apr 2014 First-time poster!!	0 Willow Sorry to butt in but seriously don't start spraying your dogs with water/using any other aversive for being unsure/aggressive around other dogs! 99% of aggression in dogs is rooted in fear, adding a bad experience from a punisher while they are already stressed because of another dog is just going to increase their fear and make things worse. Or, at best, your dog will become shut down/learned helpless but will still feel just as stressed on the inside. Spraying with water may seen quite benign to us but for some dogs it is really, really aversive and scary - and it is the dog that decides what is scary, not anyone else. I suggest you seek out help from a member of the APBC for aggression issues. Also once a dog has gone "over-threshold" it is best to practice complete avoidance of other dogs for at least 48 hours (may even be longer) to allow stress hormones to leave the system, else they just ramp up and up and up. And do some research on Behaviour Adjustment Training while waiting for your appointment with the expert. Dogs go through another fear period during adolesence and seemingly bolshy behaviour could be attributed to this. Again sorry to butt in as I only lurk - but cannot stand to see normalisation of aversives in dog training. There is almost always a better way.
lazydaisy Apr 2014 7:09am, 14 Apr 2014 7,446 posts	0 lazydaisy Willow there's no such thing as "butting in" if you have advice to give! Are you a pet behaviour counsellor? It sounds like you might be, in which case I for one would be interested to know more
Sharkie Apr 2014 8:21am, 14 Apr 2014 5,310 posts	0 Sharkie As lazydaisy points out above there's no such thing as 'butting in' on this sort of thread. I've researched threshold training - although out in the real world it's not always possible to put it into practice. there are only so many parked cars and side streets available! One of the behaviousists I know ( not Nat) suggested BAT for Jess - but she pointed out there are several schools of thought on the best way to treat aggression/anxiety/fear issues. All of the advised ones - I hasten to add - based on non aversive methods. I didn't say so here but I wouldn't and don't use a water spray with Jess. When she was a small and very bitey puppy, and I knew a lot less than I do now, we had a brief go with the water pistol. I WOULDN'T and don't do it now. I have to point out though - trust Jess - she LIKED it. Game!
Dave A Apr 2014 1:40pm, 14 Apr 2014 20,597 posts	0 Dave A I don't think that squirters are seen as a punishment in all cases. A colleague of mine has a squirted collar for his spaniel x beagle. He uses it to get the dogs attention when he runs off. Not that we use one, but it can depend on how it's used.
Helegant Apr 2014 5:34pm, 14 Apr 2014 1,953 posts	0 Helegant Willow, I'd like to know more. As you may have read, my daughter has a rescue dog that has fear issues and I'd like to understand what helps and what doesn't.
D2 Apr 2014 5:53pm, 14 Apr 2014 5,120 posts	0 D2 I would like to hear more too.
Willow Apr 2014 1:26am, 15 Apr 2014 2 posts	0 Willow I'm not a behaviour counsellor, not yet anyway. I'm a dog trainer and not yet fully qualified so although I possibly know more than average I'm not an out and out expert. So, you know, ignore me at will. I just get worried when people, with the best of intentions, start down the line of suppressing a behaviour through punishment without tackling the underlying emotional response. I like to start from a place where in order to change the behaviour you change the motivation - punishing a dog for doing something doesn't give the dog any other options - i.e. it might figure out what not to do (by no means guarenteed anyway) but without teaching him an alternatinve behaviour he's a bit stuck. Much better to think what you want the dog to do instead then work out how to motivate them to do it. It is a paradigm shift worth making. Punishment in dog training almost never works, and I'd say never works without consequences. And punishing a fearful dog is always a bad idea. I don't want to offer advice to those of you with fearful/aggressive dogs via the internet as each case is individual and would need to be assessed in person by a properly qualified individual - often a single appointment and a behaviour plan can make a huge difference (if carefully followed of course). But here is a link to the BAT website empoweredanimals.com And DaveA - I've said it once already, but it is worth repeating - it is the dog that decides what is a punisher, not the human, not "how it is used"; if the dog is scared then it has been punished. Maybe your colleague's dog didn't find the squirt collar punishing, maybe it did. If it didn't the collar could be used as a recall cue (although, why not a whistle if you aren't relying on a punishing/aversive effect?). And an aversive is, in my view, never necessary and generally just lead to further behaviour problems and a weakening of the relationship with the owner. What I find concerning is that a lot of things that are taken as fairly normal ways of treating a dog/dealing with behaviour issues can actually be really stressful for the dog - shouting, "ah-ah"s or "a firm no", headcollars, dragging a dog into situations it finds scary/generally dragging it around, water sprays, "training discs", pet correctors, lead yanking/pulling etc etc etc. It depends entirely on the dog - some dogs might be oblivious to it all, others are worried by the gentlist telling off. Sharkie - yes, avoiding going over threshold can be really hard in the real world as you say. However I do think it is worth practicing total avoidance for 48 hours after an incident nevertheless, even if that means limited walks/no walks. Continually ramping up stress levels will do a dog more harm in the long run than a couple of days without a proper walk every now and then after a bad incident. I'm ranting, I can only apologise but I do feel quite strongly about this. You all seem like nice people with your dogs' best interests at heart so I don't want to sound like I'm "telling you off" or anything - I just wanted to drop in and offer something to think on.
BaronessBL Apr 2014 8:30am, 15 Apr 2014 3,729 posts	0 BaronessBL How do you deal with a dog who is stir crazy for not having had a walk for 48 hours. I know in an ideal world of course people who didn't have a garden the size of a field wouldnt keep dogs but we don't live in an ideal world and many dog owner have modest/no gardens or gardens that might be ideal for a pug but not for an energetic dog that needs a lot of exercise. When I say stir crazy I mean really and obviously stressed, constantly vocal, ripping anything it can get hold of to shreds (including the dogs bed - the actual bed not just blankets), because it is expecting a walk at a certain time as part of its routine and is anxious when it doesn't get it. If the reason for not going for a walk is to avoid meeting other dogs if you live in a built up area close to the most popular dogwalking footpath for that estate/area it's very difficult to guarantee that if you even walk to the end of the road you won't see another dog. So having not done the walk for 48 hours once and the owner has had that level of destruction, barking, bitingetc too. What then, and how do you discourage that behaviour while it is happening during that 48 hour period? And when the dog does go out its so excited at going for a walk again its leaping about, pulling, still charging at other dogs. I can understand how the not walking for 48 hours thing might be OK if it is for a dog that has a generally calm demeanour and where both owners don't work full time so rely on a dog walking lady to come in and walk the dog and I appreciate you can't give general advice that covers every single dog and maybe there are other underlying issues in the story I relate above that I don't know - but hearing a story like that would worry me about not walking a dog for 48 hours (especially on a working days) more than the fact that I might have to yank her lead/squirt her with water/raise my voice with 'no' or do something else if I see another dog when walking mine as my dog is excitable/energetic and probably what you might call highly strung
Sharkie Apr 2014 8:49am, 15 Apr 2014 5,311 posts	0 Sharkie I completely support you Baroness, and know where you are coming from. I'm not saying Willlow is wrong, and BAT is widely accepted by many trainers/behaviourists and had already read a lengthy tome on threshold work. There is lotsof literature and advice about. I was directed to Willow's link by the 'other' animal behaviourist I know, but as she pointed out - there are several 'kind' ways of working through problems with our dogs. One thing I'd suggest - if you don't use something similar already - is a front fastening harness. Easy walk ours is callled. We alternate several different sorts of leads and harnesses with Jess - the only one she really disliked was the Gentle Leader so we gave up with that (however Nat advises that one and it works for many dogs) Incidentally Nat is has a PHD in animal behaviour as well as many, many years practical experience. Everything she does is based on understanding the DOG. And of course she is anti aversives. I'm sure LazyD will give an equally glowing - but DIFFERENT - appraisal of Lisa and co's methods.
BaronessBL Apr 2014 9:16am, 15 Apr 2014 3,731 posts	0 BaronessBL Morning Sharkie! Since we have had Wanda I have read much on training too! The story I relate above isn't Wanda but it's a there but for the grace of God go I type situation and I personally think Wanda would react badly to not going for a walk twice a day even for a 24/48 hour period. In fact when she had suspected kennel cough we were advised not to take her out but we did and kept her on the lead, allowed no contact with other dogs and were careful about where she 'sniffed.' the vet had told us that lots of dogs being walked in a particular place were all coming in with kennel cough so some owners level of responsibility was probably different and we avoided that area for a couple of weeks. Again - it's difficult to judge - for Willow or anyone - when you only hear a story second hand because you can't always ask follow up questions that the next person would ask and if the story is told to you in a chance meeting as you are both trying to walk your dogs before getting on with the working day you don't hear as much of it as you might in a one to one training session, so what I say above is my understanding only. We have a variety of harnesses for Wanda too! At the moment - because I am a) horrendously busy at work (which is what I should be doing now having started early specially and just been on this site all morning :-o) and b) not going to be on Fetch as much as normal for the rest of the week I'm not going to go into detail about what I do/don't use on Wanda as I can't get into a discussion about it now especially if all the WBW-ers start chipping in too and don't want to miss a response about her to which I might not be able to respond to for a week or so. Don't think I am being rude or ignoring people's comments advice - I'm (attempting to) only look at websites that I am meant to for work and ignoring the 'fun' ones! Wish me luck