The Sub 3:15 Marathon Thread
4 lurkers |
336 watchers
Feb 2023
9:17pm, 6 Feb 2023
5,738 posts
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Windsor Wool
The difference between 16 and 20 is quite large in my view. Particularly mentally. Totally agree Baz. SPR - go out and run an easy 20 for us this weekend and report back please 😂. I’m on the build up to 24 max ahead of Manchester. I’ve had to go 14, 16, 18, 20, 21, 22 to get my head around getting there. You’re in an excellent spot there Clare. Great stuff. And as I said elsewhere the ability to run 3+ miles as a warm down after an all-in HM is something special 💪🏻 |
Feb 2023
9:30pm, 6 Feb 2023
39,492 posts
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SPR
I wouldn't run 16 now... I'd also happily run 13 in training but wouldn't race a HM right now. When I did a somewhat fast HM in training when XC season was cancelled in 2021, I did 15, 16, and 17 mile long runs in the preceding weeks. The point wasn't about what works for me mentally, it's about what could work for others. The point was that if it's about mental effect, then if a person hasn't encountered the you need to run x times 20 mile runs to run a marathon then they might not feel any mental effect. As my initial post said, it's not about saying it's an ideal method to train, it's about understanding the philosophy of the training. |
Feb 2023
9:31pm, 6 Feb 2023
20,152 posts
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larkim
Great running Clare, fine form indeed. I disagree slightly with the 20 mile stuff being any harder than a 16/18 etc. For me it's all about what's in my head when I set off assuming I'm not being utterly overly optimistic. Set me off on a 20 mile easy pace run and unexpectedly stop me at 16 and I'll say it was easy. Set me off on a 16 mile easy run at the same pace and then tell me I need to run four more at the end and I'll say those last four are harder. I'm no biologist, but I really do struggle to conceive of something physiological that really knows the difference between 2:30 on your feet and 3:00. All that said, I still want to wear the badge of 3 or 4 20 miles before I run a flat out marathon!! |
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Feb 2023
9:32pm, 6 Feb 2023
39,493 posts
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SPR
Nice work clare1976
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Feb 2023
9:46pm, 6 Feb 2023
5,739 posts
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Windsor Wool
I think it’s all very individual. And very much in the mind. There’s still something especially difficult in running over 2:10 -> 2:15 for me. Anyway. I tell you what i sometimes think is pointless is going out and running long chunks at MP. If I know I can run 13.1 @ 30s/mile faster than MP then it’s obvious to me that I can do any MP session up to 14 miles or so. Sometimes I start these sessions and immediately feel the urge to give up as they feel pointless. I’ll still do them, of course. I’m no Velociraptor plan rebel!! |
Feb 2023
9:54pm, 6 Feb 2023
14,236 posts
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jda
I’m probably not going to do any MP training. I’ll do a couple of HMs as races instead.
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Feb 2023
10:17pm, 6 Feb 2023
20,153 posts
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larkim
As usual, I'm the contrarian. I really value the MP sessions. Telling my mind that I can do a long session at MP is a real confidence boost for me. And I am an absolute sucker for a plan. No plan = no structured training for me. Different strokes etc |
Feb 2023
10:42pm, 6 Feb 2023
1,715 posts
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riggys99
I like the MP sessions and I also like tempo session but not as keen on intervals. I don’t race much so the tempo and MP sessions replace races in my mind. I also enjoy the 20 milers just because I enjoy been out and running. Tuesday will be 16 miles or so with 10 at MP Nice work clare1976 good race |
Feb 2023
11:21pm, 6 Feb 2023
2,321 posts
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tipsku
I'm not going a lot over 3 hours in my long runs because of the diminishing returns in aerobic development and the increased injury risk past the 3 hour mark. Also, if I'm too fatigued from my LR on Sunday to nail the tempo run on Tuesday, it harms the overall training progress. 3 hours at 10 min/mi is 18 miles so I'm happy to have that as my upper limit for easy long runs. If I do a part of the LR at MP, I'll go a bit longer. I like to do a couple of fast finish runs, e.g. 13 at easy pace, 7 at MP; then I get to 20 miles in a LR that's just a bit over 3 hours. The 20 mile rule was established when the average finishing time for marathoners was still around 3 hours. People who are able to run 6:25 as their MP will run an easy 20 miler at 8 m/m pace in 2:40 hours. Now with the bulk of marathon finishers around 4 hours (+/-30 minutes), a 20 miler will take them well over the 3 hour mark and I'm not convinced that it's necessary. So I can get behind the idea that Mrs. larkim is going to be okay with 16 miles and that forcing multiple 20 milers probably won't help but rather harm progress. This said, before my first marathon, I did go over 20 miles once for peace of mind, to prove to myself that I can run over 20. But I did it just once because it wrecked me for 3 days. From a physiological perspective, it wasn't perhaps the best thing to do but psychologically, it helped me in the situation I was in. I had input from experienced marathon runners who told me I should do this and I believed them. Once I had ticked that box, I was sure I'd be okay with 26.2 but I was under no illusion that I wouldn't be wrecked for days after the marathon, too. If Mrs. larkim hasn't been told that 20 miles are necessary, I would guess that she'd be fine if she trusts the training plan she has been following. |
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Feb 2023
8:22am, 7 Feb 2023
20,154 posts
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larkim
I suppose the key thing is that the Hanson's (apparently) do have a track record of success with their 16 mile limit, so if that's a piece of evidence we shouldn't ignore it. And their book talks about some key time based cut off points for effective workouts - 30 minutes, 90 minutes and 3 hours. A bit more here, there are other descriptions of it elsewhere. lukehumphreyrunning.com Whether this works the sample of one that is my better half, who knows! [As an aside, she's on an interesting journey at the moment as she was diagnosed with pernicious anaemia about 6 months ago, to her surprise. Her parkrun times had been progressively getting slower (disproportionatley to her WAVA) over about a 4 year period despite her running similar amounts and she'd got to the stage where she'd decided to stop entering any races etc. A blood test for something else showed iron levels on the floor (ferritin at 3.8 I think - I believe it should be at least 20, ideally higher. Also a very low haemoglobin score). 3 weeks of iron tablets and B12 and she'd taken a minute off her best for 12 months, now 6 months in and she's running her best WAVA ever and close to all time parkrun PBs (and blood test markers are back in normal ranges). So she's got a real sweet spot of enthusiasm and determination to give this a good shot, and (in her words) she feels like her aerobic system is a bit like someone who has trained at altitude for 4 years in an oxygen depleted state, so now she's reaping the benefits of all of the oxygen she can take up!] |
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