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May 2016
11:44am, 3 May 2016
268 posts
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J2R
Your first ventilatory threshold (VT1) is normally regarded as the point above which your breathing starts to rapidly become more laboured, identified by difficulty speaking in full sentences. I remember reading somewhere (here?) that it's often around 77% of your HRmax (although it varies from person to person). But that sounds like the point at which chatting is no longer viable. If you're racing at just 77% of your HRmax, you're really not giving it your best shot, unless it's something like an ultra!
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May 2016
2:51pm, 4 May 2016
207 posts
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dibbers
I think the VT1 (ave 77%) is at the start of the curve, the point above which l;actate first starts to accumulate. You can still chat merrily above that. I'm pretty sure the ' difficulty speaking in full sentences' occurs higher up the curve 82-88%
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May 2016
3:33pm, 4 May 2016
271 posts
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J2R
Yes, it's the start of the curve. This is from http://runningreform.com/polarized-training-and-injury-prevention/:
Ventilatory threshold 1 (VT1): While exercising, your breathing is relaxed enough that you can speak in full sentences. Any increase in exercise intensity will cause a spike in your breathing rate.
Ventilatory threshold 2 (VT2): While exercising, your breathing allows you to speak, but not in full sentences. Any increase in exercise intensity will increase the lactate concentration in your blood to rise beyond a point where sustainable exercise is possible.
So you're right, it's somewhere between those points that chatting becomes problematic, rather than VT1 itself. But the change does come about pretty quickly, with every extra heart beat per minute.
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May 2016
11:48am, 9 May 2016
1,430 posts
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RunningRonnie
Just discovered this thread and look forward to reading back through some of it (but at 1803 pages, there's a lot of content. For now though, I have a quick question about heart rate...
When I run at a perceived 70-80% effort level, my heart rate is at about 160-170 bpm. When I work at a perceived 70-80% effort level in a Spin class, my heart rate is at about 150 bpm. To get to 160-170bpm during Spin, I feel like I am pushing my absolute max and could not sustain it for any amount if time. (These numbers are rough estimates, to illustrate my point).
In which activity am I working harder? If it's harder in spin to get my heart rate up, then surely I am working harder? Conversely, if my heart rate is lower in spin for a sustained period of time, then surely I am not working as hard despite the perceived effort level? It confuses me.
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May 2016
12:25pm, 9 May 2016
18,997 posts
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GlennR
RR, there seems to be a consensus that HR when cycling is somehow different, but I know sod all about the bike side of things.
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May 2016
12:26pm, 9 May 2016
218 posts
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Ulric
Usually HRs are lower on a bike by around the margin you indicate. I find though that I can get my HR up to running MHR if I pedal up a steep hill out of the saddle on a heavy MTB. Don't think I've done it on a road bike. On the flat forget it, I would find 150 hard to reach (v 165 ish running flat out).
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May 2016
1:13pm, 9 May 2016
1,431 posts
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RunningRonnie
Glad to hear it's not just me then. :D
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May 2016
1:29pm, 9 May 2016
276 posts
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J2R
It's me, too. Flat out up a hill I can my heart rate up to 150 on a bike, where I will see 170 on an equivalent effort run. I think it's to do with the fact that you're not supporting your body weight on a bike, and also that you're much more vertical when running, meaning the heart has to pump harder against gravity.
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May 2016
3:44pm, 9 May 2016
67 posts
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tagazou
hi reading through this last part have a question (after much lurking and contribution here years ago!)
when I try to train much over threchold level, I end up on a elliptical trainer cos if I try running over 90% (150 straight HR) for example aiming at hitting 155, but I'm dead after not even a minute. But can keep it up on the trainer for a while.
any ideas?
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May 2016
3:47pm, 9 May 2016
68 posts
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tagazou
wht i lean is when running pereived effort for 95% is about 120%!
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Daniels Running Formula. The Definitive Wire.
Jul 2023